Hated but Popular

Speaker A: 00:00:00

. And it's been running since: 2011

Speaker B: 00:03:23

So working with the assumption that generally nobody likes it, right? We can challenge that assumption later. We probably should.

Speaker A: 00:03:31

Yeah, I think we're going to get a little bit misanthropic here. But also, we're going to, I think we need to stage an attack on Nick Hare's liberal North London... Elitist. Keep. Yes. So... Yeah, his ivory tower.

Speaker B: 00:03:48

Right. Peter? Working with the assumption that nobody likes it, I think, I think, I've got a couple of ideas. I haven't had a chance to sort of do the math, as it were, and press them out. But I think there's some sort of market failure going on. So, so I think, I think in a similar vein to the Happy Birthday song, which is fucking terrible.

Speaker A: 00:04:14

It's... Do you mean the song? Do you mean Happy Birthday? I mean, yeah. It's hard to call it the Happy Birthday song, but okay. Well, I think that's what it is. We all understood straight away.

Speaker B: 00:04:24

Fair enough. So I think there's some sort of like path dependency or cultural lock-in going on with Mrs. Brown Boys and similar phenomena where at one time it was popular, right? So it did have lots of views. And the reason why... Does popular mean crap? That's another question. But anyway, keep going. But the reason why it was popular, so it was popular and had lots of views because it was new and it was stuck on primetime TV and everyone was kind of forced to watch it. But it's now unpopular but gets lots of views because it's on primetime TV. And the people who make the show and decide the scheduling haven't got enough information about what people actually want to watch. And they're sort of stuck in a bit of a groove. Now, it's not a very robust theory because surely you'd have thought it had been more or less completely eroded by some on-demand TV. But I think there are still a large population of people who watch primetime TV and they're sort of just sort of stuck in it. They sit through it for

Speaker A: 00:05:29

an hour to get through to the news or something. Yeah, look, I don't think... No, actually, not implausible. I think Peter is right to say, actually, we should challenge, is it genuinely unpopular? But at the same time, there are other phenomena that are like that, e.g. lock-in with electricity providers or banks or something where people will keep using the same bank even if the service is terrible because the switching costs are very high. And it might just be, well, people watch that slot, TV slot, regardless of what's on it and actually hate it, but it's there. And that's still better than watching a blank screen. Yeah, my mum used to complain. She used to say, I don't know why I pay for my TV license, which she didn't, by the way. And she says, you know, it's all rubbish. But no one watched more TV than her. Right. And in fact, she used to moan about, even she didn't like Mrs. Brown's Boys, and used to moan because her best mate liked it. But actually, then my mum would watch it all the time and complain about it.

Speaker B: 00:06:29

So I think there's something going on there. And I think the same is true for all daytime TV. So all of the cash in the attics and all that kind of crap is the stakes are low enough that nobody really cares. As long as something is on, as long as you haven't got the test screen, they don't

Speaker C: 00:06:46

really care. I mean, let's... Jordan, yeah. I just I also wonder, I'm not saying it's the case with Mrs. Brown's Boys, but I wonder how many of these viewers are genuine or they're watching it kind of ironically as well, because I think there is maybe a line where something so bad, so unpopular that it kind of develops a cult following for its badness. Watching it ironically. And watching Mrs. Brown, but I think there are other cultural examples of films and television that are so awful that people start to get behind them, because they're just

Speaker A: 00:07:26

like, wow, this is so shocking. Yeah, The Room, I think is a good example. Yeah, the Tommy Wiseau film and William Shatner's music career. Nick Cage films as well. Hasselhoff and his music. Yeah, that's probably true. But I, it's funny, because I think that's an interesting idea, actually. I feel like the problem with the likes of Mrs. Brown's Boys is it's simply not bad enough. But again, maybe we'll get to that in a bit. But I think that is an interesting category of thing

Speaker B: 00:07:55

we need to think about. Well, I but I've also got another mechanism for the market failure. And I'm not sure that I, it's just a half an idea. But there's some sort of Nash equilibrium that we've settled on that because there's some sort of competition. A what equilibrium? A Nash equilibrium. Nash? Okay. It's a thing from game theory. Assuming that, you know, who are the players, actually? The players are the viewers, and the other player is the scheduler. TV people. Yeah. They're both in competition with each other, i.e. they're in competition over the viewers time. But they've settled on a globally suboptimal, locally maximal kind of outcome. And it's very difficult to get off that hill to go and find a better one. Yeah. So it's basically, literally, because it's better than

Speaker A: 00:08:46

nothing, it still makes sense to keep the people watching it kind of happy. Yeah. But even if there's something that's even better than Mrs. Brown's Boys, it's not going to make its way into the schedule. Yeah. Look, isn't it just the thick people and proles just love crap? We all think that's true, but we can't say it, Fraser. I've got some other things, which if we want, I feel like I'm picking a bit on Mrs. Brown's Boys. You might say deservedly. But I've got some other examples of things that are inexplicably popular. If we do. And universally hated. Yeah, I remember years ago, most people have poor taste. Disgust. I mean, let's not discuss it. But that's also what I'm trying to say. But Nick. So I've got some most hated celebrities of all time. Again, this is I don't know how they've worked this out. Right. But it's a good list. According to BuzzFeed. Justin Bieber. Yeah. Kanye West. Yes. Three out of three. He's like the new Gavin Williams. Now we know why. You've answered it. We hate him, but yet you can't stay away from him. I actually don't know enough about him. Kim Kardashian, Shia LaBeouf, Simon Cowell, Gwyneth Paltrow, John Travolta. What? James Corden. Right. These are movies that are universally hated, but they think widely watched in the sense that there are lots and lots of ratings. So these are these are things that lots of people have seen. But hey, there's a whole swathe of them. Epic movie, date movie, disaster movie, kind of generic churned out parodies of genres and super babies, baby geniuses, too, which I have. I've never seen, but definitely want to. And some other ones, the hottie and the naughty alone in the dark. These are real films. Yeah. And the only one I think I when it's John Travolta appearing again is Battlefield Earth, which is famous, very famous Scientology based flop. So I just sort of throw those out because it feels to me like I get it right. What is it about Justin Bieber and James Corden and Kim Kardashian? We all know they're popular and and actually films in that sort of I don't think Battlefield Earth is one of them, but those sort of really run of the mill films, the Fast and the Furious, those things we love to hate. Yeah. Like that. Is there something distinctive about them? Because I feel like there might be and I want to poke into that. I don't know as much about the films, but certainly the individuals, which is lauded beyond their talents. Right. And combined with a bit of smugness, quite a heavy smudge of smugness there. I think Gwyneth Paltrow, Justin Bieber, I think you've I think I think you've nailed it. I'd say it's the ego to talent ratio. Yeah. Although I think James Corden's pretty talented, actually. But anyway, I mean, I don't I sort of understand why people hate him, but I actually quite like him. I think he is talented, but I just think maybe not necessarily very nice. So I have a I've got I was actually listening to the Scottish comedian and and Twitch streamer Limmy. He's got a real thing about James Corden. All right. He's always like incredibly insulting about him because he's really he's always nice about it. I don't hate James Corden. James Corden seems really talented to me. But I think the reason he's so annoying is. But he said he used the term try hard. And I thought that's a really good that nails actually something about. And it made me think he's overly ambitious. No. Well, try hard is in the sense of being someone who's untalented, but eager to succeed despite their lack of talent. And they do so through kind of imitation and playing the part of a person who's like that, you know. And you could see there's there's so in other words, like Kim Kardashian has carefully cultivated the image of being Kim Kardashian. And she wants you to think it's just her. It's her authentic self. So I think there's an inauthenticity about the image, which which I think really people find very annoying. So, yeah, so I think I feel like that that is a definite class of class of person that the try hard. And I feel like that is common, actually, across really

Speaker B: 00:13:16

quite a few of these things. I just wonder if there's an equivalent of that to the Mrs. Brown's

Speaker A: 00:13:22

Boys and the movies. I feel like there is. And I think it's the same thing is that this film thinks it is better than it ain't all that. Yeah. It's not quite true of the films, but I think it's that says like a sort of behaving like your this product is really amazing. It's got all of the all of the trappings. It's in primetime. It's got, you know, it's advertised everywhere. It's and yet it does just doesn't deserve it. There's this sense of like almost like social policing. Like we we want to take this thing down a peg or two. And if it was if it was on BBC two at, you know, 10 in the evening, we'd we'd leave it alone. But it's the fact that it is so successful that makes us I mean, there are some films that can be like that, that are very weighty and often talked about as sort of being made with a sort of looking at the Oscars already kind of thing. And they can be quite to mission. So I think about things like there will be blood, for example, which I think is actually a good film, but I can't I've only seen it once. I'm not going to go and watch that again. So they're a bit weighty. And I think things like Amistad as well. I think the Shawshank Redemption, which again, I like it's a good film, but it's nowhere near as good as it's lauded as I think it is. Oh, you're one of those popular people who like who like things that are popular. Yeah, I must be like Mrs. Brown. Yeah. I don't know where we've just gone, but because I interjected there, but Jordan. Yeah, I guess

Speaker C: 00:15:02

things that everyone says they hate, but are really popular. I guess it kind of picks up on a few a few things. It's like we always need things to dislike, I guess. And disliking popular things is a good place to start because you can just be nice and contrary. Yeah, exactly. And you can just sort of take the piss out of things that everyone likes and set yourself apart

Speaker B: 00:15:28

in a way that you hope appears interesting. Yeah. And then there's the other thing of,

Speaker C: 00:15:34

you know, you've got hipster culture now, which is basically taking cultural artifacts that no one really does much with and turning them into cool things and being anti-cultural as well. And

Speaker A: 00:15:47

things that other people like. Yeah. Do you think there's a movement in the hipster? Is there a hardcore of hipsters who are following Mrs. Brown's boys and love it and genuinely love it? Possibly. Possibly. You have made me think, actually, though, is there also a phenomenon of, you know, the secret Tories, which are shy Tories. Well, it reminds me of a joke that Stuart Lee told. It was a kind of long routine, just about how, you know, in the 80s, everyone hated Thatcher. The miners hated her and the teachers hated her and the workers hated her and the railway unions hated her and everyone hated Thatcher. It's a wonder she kept getting elected. And obviously, like the opinion polls used to always massively undersell the Tories because of this thing about they had become known as, you know, it was just the people who didn't like them were so much more vocal than the people who did like them, that people just lied about what they were going to vote for. They didn't want to admit to voting Tory. And is it the same phenomenon here? I mean, are there are there people secretly listening to, you know, to Justin Bieber and watching Mrs. Brown's boys as some kind of guilty pleasure? But they know that they wouldn't admit to that. With their thumb over the home button. Yeah. I think it's just in case someone walks. Yeah.

Speaker C: 00:17:12

Eating at McDonald's or buying Apple products or watching things on Amazon, all these things that everyone. I do all of them. No, but like people love railing against Twitter, but everyone's using it. Like it's like all these things where you're not it's not sort of culturally acceptable to like them, but we all kind of do them anyway. And we all kind of secretly know that about each other as well. I think like like it's not very cool to really love Amazon, but everyone is obviously using Amazon. It's like these. I think there's also maybe something about the scale as well. Like when once something is such a big multinational, it's like you can't really like it anymore. You've got to like things that are small and niche and interesting. Yeah. They become a utility. Yeah.

Speaker B: 00:18:01

Saying like you like running water. You can't really do without it.

Speaker A: 00:18:05

Yeah. I'm not sure if this relates, but I know I've been involved in at least a couple of sort of social groups, both of which would do with creativity. And one was when I was on a documentary filmmaking course for a few months and another one now when I'm a documentary photography course, everyone there's pretty lefty. OK, and that's all right. I'm fairly lefty. I'm actually quite centrist, but probably on the left of that. However, I find myself in our online discussions and I'm sort of defending the Daily Mail and just going on about how great it is. And actually, you shouldn't write off the Daily Mail and literally talking about that specifically the Daily Mail just because it just infuriates me just how bloody right on everyone is amongst this lot. And actually, I probably think most of the things that they think. Yeah, exactly. I'm pretty left on. Yeah, I don't know if this ties into it. Guys, I feel a bit lost. Where are we? I feel like we've run out of steam. Do you feel the opposite? I'm intrigued by that idea because I think, you know, it's like I was touching on with the shy Tories. You don't get shy Labour supporters. No, because it has a it has a it's always been cooler to be on the left. Yeah. But but then you have to ask why. And is it something to do with, um, you know, perceived motivations or something like like the left sort of associated with night being nice? Now, obviously, if you know about economics, you realise it's not entirely fair way of looking at it. But but that's the sort of association. So what associations do we have with things like Mrs. Brown's Boys and James Corden? Yeah. That mean it's sort of that could explain why it's socially unacceptable to admit to liking them if this is part of the answer. And of course, we don't know. What is it about them that's socially unacceptable? Yeah. But if it's the case that I mean, then we're going to we're going to struggle to work out why because there are all these people out there and not telling us and they're not telling us why they

Speaker C: 00:19:59

like it. Yeah. I don't think it's a high culture, low culture thing either, because I think like you've got Love Island, for example, which, you know, some people are very proud to say that they watch Love Island, even though no one's proud of saying that they watched Mrs. Brown's

Speaker A: 00:20:12

Boys. No, I think you're right. I think I think you're onto something. Yeah. So yeah. No, exactly.

Speaker C: 00:20:17

So I don't think it's a matter of, oh, something's unsophisticated. So I'm I'm I'm not I'm not sort of going to, you know, proudly say that I watch. I think there are some things that are so bad that people are quite happy to say that they watch and they really and they're really popular. But there are others where it's just not the case. It's beyond the pale. Yeah. I don't know what

Speaker B: 00:20:38

it's in the sort of uncanny valley of badness. Yeah. It's not quite bad enough. It's not just

Speaker A: 00:20:45

bad because I think it's something like Love Island. There's definitely something generational going on there, which is definitely not for me, but for others is definitely fine. That's great. Yeah. I hold up. I do think whereas old Mrs. Brown's is very old fashioned, though, and almost boredom. Right. But I think if you go back to, you know, this this this the things provoking a particularly emotional response because of this perceived this perceived mismatch between their status and their deserved status. I feel like things like Love Island know they're lowbrow. They go right in there and say, we're not pretending to be, you know, I, Claudius. We're Love Island. And also stuff that I quite like, like The Naked Truth, which I always really liked and Take Me Out, which I always found quite fun to watch. You know, they they are not pretending to be anything other than they are. And therefore, I think it's acceptable, isn't it? It's acceptable in even in metropolitan metropolitan circles to say that you like Love Island. Yeah, absolutely. But yes. So it's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So there's something about. So then I guess it's

Speaker B: 00:21:49

a question of authenticity, perhaps. Yeah. Yeah. And quality. And insight. It's like Mrs. Brown's, as much as it is a sort of it's an entity in its own right, doesn't realise what it is. I think it definitely does. I think it definitely does. Is it? Well, Nick made the case earlier that Mrs. Brown's boys is they're not they're not aware of how crap it is. And they're doing it authentically. And they think that they're doing this great pantomimey kind of

Speaker A: 00:22:19

show. But maybe they're right. Millions love it. Yeah. No, I think that authenticity thing, I feel like that simmered it down even further to a delicious sort of, you know, concentrated stock of what we're talking about here. I think I think that's it. I feel like if you had to put it's that perceived inauthenticity, which which puts the James Corden's and the Justin Bieber in one bucket. Yeah. You know, whereas I think Mrs. Brown's voice is authentic. Yeah, you're right. It doesn't quite work. No. By the way, one thing I think is really nice about Mrs. Brown's boys is and this will warm the cockles of your heart, which is the the guy who's the main actor in it, though I don't know his name is Brendan something. He's Irish bloke, middle aged. And obviously he's in drag during it. But for years, decades possibly, he was I think he was a stand up comedian or if not, that's something that he was always he's always been in entertainment, was not doing very well at all. And but just kept going, kept going and thought one day I might make it big. And he's a nice guy, I think, from what I've seen. And his kind of almost his last gasp was, I've got an idea for this show. I don't know if anyone's going to go for it. And after years of being knocked back, got, you know, got this show made. Millions of people watch it. And he's probably a multimillionaire now because of it. So try hard. He's not try hard because he's not like Gwyneth Paltrow or Kim Kardashian. So I think he knows it. I'd like to sit down in the pub and have a drink with him. I tell you what, and definitely you, Nick, we'd have you'd have a great time. You, me and Brendan, we'd have a lovely time. I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure. Two things. One, I can't believe we've got this far in this about things that people hate, but are inexplicably popular. Piers Morgan. Yeah, gotta say those two. Oh, he's just the vilest person out there. It's awful. Like just how he is popular. That's what always springs to my mind. There's a second thing

Speaker C: 00:24:18

I was going to say. Yeah. I just wanted to think about this, this idea of popularity a little bit as well. It's like, what do we mean? Like, do we mean viewership? Like just purely lots of people watch Mrs. Brown's Boys? Because I get the impression that they're not popular. It's not popular in the sense that they have legions of fans going out there saying we love Mrs. Brown's We're talking purely like audience numbers. And so I wonder, yeah, is there something maybe our metric for popularity is also not really? Well, this is like our podcast we did about that episode

Speaker A: 00:24:53

about what was it films and too much money and you know, is is how do you measure popularity? Is it you know, financially successful? People liking something a bit is still enough to make you money. You know, where 10 people really loving it is not is not. Yeah. But actually, and going back to something else we're talking about things that maybe actually this is a good moment for us to wrap up. And I was thinking about, you know, what's popular that you do like, you know, I don't think there's gonna be anything that Nick, you know, just, you know, because I only listen to experimental esoteric. Correct. The only TV I like watching is geometric shapes played in a random order. Right, exactly. The only thing I find stimulating enough. Exactly. Ant & Dec. I really like Ant & Dec. I don't think anyone dislikes Ant & Dec. Very likable, right? Cheeky Chappies and their latest thing, which is Saturday Night Live. Bits of it a little bit, you know, but a little no, a little bit too lowbrow for me. Even for you. Even for an intellectual giant like me. I like them and they're very likable. I don't watch. Do you like it goes over your head, actually? Maybe that's why. That's the bits I think are rubbish. It's just gone over my head. But what's the one they all go in the jungle? What's that called? I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here. Yeah, I never watched that. That's awful. I mean, maybe that's a little bit of diversion. I think that's the

Speaker B: 00:26:20

celebrities trying hard, isn't it? I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here. Good. You don't go on I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here if your career is booming. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And I think

Speaker A: 00:26:30

there's something about Matt Hancock, right? There's that motivation of I'm doing this for myth because I want my somehow I want to. I want a career. I want to reboot my career. Not I want to be good at something and succeed doing that. It's that I just want to be a successful person and I need to be on TV. Yeah. Which which again, yeah, I think that's rather cynical of you because apparently Matt Hancock is only going on there so that he can raise awareness of dyslexia. Is he? Yeah. So now you have to support it. Yeah. Otherwise you're, you know, aggressive. So look, let's definitively ask that question. Is that is that going to be our end question? What's popular that you like? That we like. Right. Anything for popular culture that you like? Um, silence.

Speaker B: 00:27:18

Well, it's it's so the things that I'm kind of into aren't necessarily popular culture anymore, but they were. So I'm getting madrigals. So when when I'm looking after Ada, we have rock out time, which basically means I put on sort of cool 70s, 80s, 90s mainstream rock music. Brilliant. And we dance around and she loves it. I like that. I like that. Yeah. Um,

Speaker A: 00:27:47

actually, on the same vein, I've got a song that I love driving along to with my family as well. Is this the way to Amarillo? Yeah, it's good. It's good. I love it. That's a good song. I listen to it on the way here today. In fact, Jordan, what about yourself?

Speaker C: 00:28:02

that. Pop music from the late: 2010

Speaker A: 00:28:34

he still actually, because he makes records, right? He's a producer. He's a producer and a rapper. And does he still like do his own rapping song? He's a rapping waller.

Speaker C: 00:28:53

But is he? He's more, I guess. Is he now more just of a personality? He's more into fashion and he's got other kind of business interests. Has he put a record out in the last year? Not the last year, but I think he's put one out in the last couple of years. Is he Donald Trump's mate? He's a supporter. Right. OK. OK. Yeah. Yeah. OK. He's there on the fringes. I kind of read about him just doing mad stuff. I don't know. I think that's why I like him. I think he just does inexplicably weird things. And I think he likes to kind of he likes to sort of send up the kind of cultural zeitgeist a bit, which I find interesting as well.

Speaker A: 00:29:33

OK, but would you? So thinking about. Actually, I've got I suppose my nomination would be I was going to say it's just because it's been an earworm of mine for the last couple of days. More Than Words by Xtreme, which I think was brilliant. It's a great love it. But again, it's one of the things it was a number one album. Pornography. But it was but it was number one for about a million years. And and it was like the thing that everywhere in Europe they were playing it constantly for on loop for six months. And I feel like I wouldn't admit to liking that song if if I was on, you know, if I was being interviewed by by Melvin Bragg. But I I love it. You know, I was going to say this for the same reason that Jordan was selling me Kanye. I mean, yeah, I really like Sheila Booth for the same reason. Like he's he's really aggressively dislikeable and he doesn't do anything to make you want to like him. And yet I find him inexplicably really. I've got a lot of respect for that, you know, going to go all out. And he's not dislikeable in a kind of grumpy way or anything. He's dislikeable because he's an arrogant bastard who appears to believe he's the best actor ever. And he's just completely unapologetic about that. I like that. I think he's not a bad actor. I think one could like the concept of that. If you spent more than 10 minutes with him, you'd go. Maybe. But he is a good actor. Yeah. Well, I've only seen him in one thing. And he was good in that. He's got a hand in that. So fair enough. Yeah. I'm not done, actually. I thought I would be. But I'm excited now because you got me thinking about going out for dinner. It's going to turn into more than dinner with Sheila Booth. Oh, yeah. And Kim Kardashian's coming along as well. I just what's the worst? Imagine that sort of worst party or the greatest, worst night out, the worst great night out. I mean, who's going to be there? Yay. It's going to be there. Your mate. Yay. This is actually sounds really good fun. Yeah. Ant and Dec are coming along. But the Beebmeister has to turn up and sing a song. Well, I'm a Belieber. We're going to have Tony Christie's going to come as well. No, but he's good. But we've got our good bad guys. We've got our bad, bad guys. I remember my. Gwyneth Paltrow won't

Speaker B: 00:31:42

sine. No. I remember in about: 1990

Speaker A: 00:31:48

ABBA was popular. And I remember someone saying ABBA, they were having an ABBA renaissance thing. And I think since then, ABBA have just stayed at a certain level of popularity and have a huge amount of respect, you know. But they said, you know, in the late 70s, everyone hated ABBA. They were seen as like the epitome of really terrible, cheap pop. Yeah. It does take time for the true diamonds, I suppose, to emerge. And I and I and I think, you know, it could be could be in 10 years time. Mrs. Brown's Boys will have turned out to be an actual massive cultural icon and we'll be embarrassed to say that we didn't like it, but it'll be on record because here we are. Unfortunately, so. And so I'm going to take this opportunity now. I can live with it. OK, well, just in case. Sorry, Piers. Obviously, you're a wonderful human being. OK, time to stop there, I feel. Thank you, as always, for listening to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast. I'm Fraser McGruer. We've been here with Jordan Fermanis, Peter Coghill and Nick Hare of Aleph Insights. Until next time, goodbye.