The Country and the City

Speaker A: 00:00:00

Hello and welcome to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast produced by me, Fraser McGruer for Aleph Insights. In this series of podcasts, we take a look at interesting topics and discuss what we think they tell us about analysis and decision making. I'm here with Peter Coghill and Nick Hare of Aleph Insights, and also we have with us Mikey Lear as our special guest. And this week we're discussing country versus city. And unusually, because of lockdown, another lockdown, we're recording this remotely. Let's kick off with Nick. Who is Mikey? And how do you know him?

Speaker B: 00:00:38

Well, that's a good question. I actually, Mikey is a number of things. He's officially, he's a teacher right now. But he's also been, among other things, a fireman, a Guinness World Record holder, and a countdown contestant, very successful one, in fact. And also World War Two Spitfire pilot, I believe. Well, yes, I mean, remarkable facial hair as well. I actually know Mikey through board games. And I think we've got pretty similar taste in board games. And we're introduced through a mutual friend. But I've now played many hundreds of board games together. The reason he's here is that he comes from, and is currently located in, a little village, an idyllic village in West Sussex called Barkham. And Barkham is always, it's an amazing place where King George VI is still on the throne. And it's perpetually a summer day in June. And I thought, because of his rural background, it would be ideal to have him on in this discussion.

Speaker A: 00:01:41

Okay. And so I should explain, again, I know you sort of referenced it a little bit there, but you do have the most splendid sort of, would you call it a handlebar mustache, Mikey? I don't know. I'll definitely call it splendid. It's pretty big. Yeah. Yes. But yeah, is there, in addition to any, has Nick left anything out there, Mikey, apart from expert country dweller, is there anything else that we should know about yourself? You're a teacher now, is that right? What do you teach?

Speaker C: 00:02:09

I teach computer science. Yeah. I don't think that really gives me any kind of authority in the current discussion. And yeah, as an expert in the country, I'm pretty much not, I'm not really one of them either. I am just someone who lives here.

Speaker B: 00:02:23

Have you ever picked an apple from a tree and munched it?

Speaker C: 00:02:25

You mean, scrumped it? Scrumped an apple?

Speaker B: 00:02:27

Well, I mean, it could have been your own tree, for all I care.

Speaker C: 00:02:29

What do you mean? Yes. I've picked my own apple and munched it. And I've also scrumped an apple. Yeah, you are. Definitely qualified.

Speaker B: 00:02:37

I've never scrumped an apple in my life.

Speaker C: 00:02:39

Yeah. So that was a pretty good introduction. Obviously, Nick did the, and a lot of your viewers will have recognised this straight away, your listeners, I mean, that Barkham is, of course, in East Sussex, not West Sussex, but Nick makes a, has a policy of always forget, normally he says I'm from Suffolk, and sometimes some other county beginning with S, as long as it's not London, he-

Speaker B: 00:03:03

It's not on the Tube network. I don't, I've got no idea. It's very different. Yeah. But also, before we go on though, Brady, it must be worth saying that you yourself have recently become a more rural person.

Speaker A: 00:03:19

Oh, you have, that's right. I've become more rural.

Speaker B: 00:03:22

You've moved, that's wrong, but you're in Lincolnshire now.

Speaker A: 00:03:24

I am, yes. So I think, you know, to give some background here, I mean, amongst the many things that you and I argue about, one of them does tend to be, you know, country versus city. And I'm not, certainly London, I'm not a huge fan of, never have been. I lived there briefly, I still kind of work there. And, but after a brief period of travel about 10 years ago, when I moved back to the UK, I didn't want to live in London. So I sort of moved to Hertfordshire to a lovely little place called Sawbridgeworth. But even that, I found that sort of a little bit too polluted. There's more than one house in it. So you, right. Too urban. So, yeah, I found that too influenced by the city. And so as of about four days ago, I've completely sort of, well, not completely, but I've moved in further. I now live in Lincolnshire in a lovely little place, which this is what's good. This is what's great about the country. I'm not even sure how to pronounce where I live. So I call it Fokingham, but I think that's rather frowned upon. Apparently it's called Fockingham, which my children will be having great fun with that. So, yeah, so I sort of made this, you know, I've got even more rural and I live in this little village and it's definitely a village. I think there's no more than 800 people here. And it sort of actually looks quite Cotswoldy. I'm in a Georgian building and, you know, and it's perfectly lovely. And I can't understand why anyone would not want to live somewhere like this. Right. So, country versus city. We've not heard from Peter yet. Peter, country versus, let's just go for it and get our views out.

Speaker D: 00:05:01

Well, as we alluded, this is a hot debate, not only in Aleph Insights, but also in my household. So I was brought up as sort of country boy, although small town boy, really. I'm advocating for us to move out of London. We've moved back into London at the beginning of this year. Who's we? Me and my girlfriend, Rosie. And we've got our new 13 week old child just arrived. I'm advocating for a move out of London for all of the benefits that it has, bigger house.

Speaker B: 00:05:31

Can I just say, though, he lives in Crouch End, which practically is the countryside.

Speaker D: 00:05:36

Well, it doesn't feel like it. It doesn't feel like it. It's well within the M25. In fact, it's well within the southeast of England, which is terrible. I sense resistance within your household. But yeah, what are your motivations then?

Speaker A: 00:05:48

Why do you want to move out here?

Speaker D: 00:05:50

Well, it's the space. For me, it's the space. At the moment, I'm probably no more than about five metres away from three other households in a sort of block of housing, a nice flat, nice set of flats. But, you know, it's just having people around. I feel quite crowded. And the fact that, you know, if I step out my house, it would take me at least two hours to find somewhere that's wide open and green that I can't see another house in. Everywhere you go is just people, people, cars, cars. It's busy. Just close your eyes. They all disappear. Yeah, I could invest in a VR headset. That wouldn't quite have the same effect.

Speaker A: 00:06:35

I want to hear for the case for the city and then we'll come to Mikey. Nick?

Speaker B: 00:06:41

City. I think the case for and against is going to be probably what we're talking about. But cards on table. I'm a 100% city person. I've always lived in a city, primarily London. And I think one of the reasons I'd like to have this discussion is because people have such a down on it. I feel like I'm kind of in the position of wanting to defend the city and particularly London, which people just feel perfectly free to criticise all the time. And I want to take the opportunity to kind of, you know, to slag off the countryside because everyone, everyone loves it. Everyone loves the countryside. I think it's about time someone gave it a good kicking. Bloody countryside.

Speaker A: 00:07:25

Tell us why don't you like the countryside?

Speaker B: 00:07:28

Well, we're going to get to that, aren't we? That's what we're going to be talking about. I don't want to spill the beans at this point.

Speaker A: 00:07:34

Okay. So you want to keep your powder dry. Mikey, what prompted, I mean, where are you from originally? What prompted, I don't know if it was a move to the countryside.

Speaker C: 00:07:42

I don't know. I'm from Barkham, which, you know, previously mentioned and some described as the centre of the world, but some don't even know it's here. And I have moved away.

Speaker B: 00:07:55

It's got a portal. It's got a thing protecting it like Wakanda. You can only get to it if someone invites you in.

Speaker C: 00:08:00

I'm sure that's funny. I don't know what you mean.

Speaker B: 00:08:05

Because you're from Barkham. Yeah. They don't have any cinemas. He doesn't, they don't have, they've only got, they've only got silent films there. Yeah. You've got three channels.

Speaker C: 00:08:13

Yeah. It's a cinema based joke. Yeah. Okay. No, I wouldn't, I wouldn't get that. Yeah. So I have grown up here and come back here and have spent some time in London and Brighton and other cities. Actually, I'm a fan of cities. I really like them, but I basically see them as good places to visit. And I'm glad that, you know, there's people who kind of suckers basically, who are propping them up and possibly some of your listeners are city dwellers. I don't want to insult them. I'm sure they've got their reasons, but I guess primarily I see them as dating agencies, particularly London. People swarm in to London when they're 20 or whatever, thinking I am single and I better get a job or something so I can meet someone of the opposite sex or, or, you know, same sex and marry them. And then Peter, what happens is they get to the age where they have found someone and they have a child. And then they think, what on earth am I doing in this pesky place? It's full of crime.

Speaker D: 00:09:16

I am fully fulfilling that trope.

Speaker C: 00:09:18

Well, as we did with Brazor. And there's all these sexy people wandering around who I have no interest in anymore. So why don't I just get the heck out? And that is, um, and yeah, so they have a function. They're great and they're interesting places to go and visit. But, uh, but yeah, it's Nick, you've had your children, you've, you've got your girlfriend, get out, get out now.

Speaker B: 00:09:39

No, no, see that's there. Look, I mean, I think we're going to start to get onto the subject matter here before we do. Yeah. Can we, can we just, let's talk about outcomes. Uh, like I look, I was trying to work out. Can I, can I, can I base my love of London and city life on anything resembling an evidential foundation? That was the question. The answer is going to be no, isn't it? I can hear it. Sadly, I was hoping to unearth piles of data that proved that people in the countryside died at the age of 30 and, uh, had terrible lives, but no, it seems that living in the countryside is sort of good for you in some way. Um, so if you live in a rural area, you're going to on average live two years longer. You, um, you, uh, are going to be more likely to be employed, uh, which I was surprised by because what do people in the country do? They can't all be blacksmiths. So anyway, you're more likely to be employed as well. Yeah. And, um, and, and actually their earnings are not drastically different. If you, I mean, I must say London is a bit of an outlier on the earnings front, as you'd expect. Um, the, uh, educational outcomes at, at, um, GCSE are better. Um, but actually slightly fewer people in the countryside go to university. Um, I think probably cause they're scared because most universities have got people in them and stuff. Um, the evidence on environment, whether it's more environmentally friendly to live in the countryside, that is actually quite, everyone thinks it's something green about the countryside, but it's certainly mixed. And there's some evidence that living in the city might be more environmentally friendly because you're less likely to drive to places and so on. Um, basically the countryside is a great place to live. That seems to be the outcome to which I have only one question. Why the fuck are they all here? Why are they all living in London? Why have they all moved to my hometown to push up house prices and then moan about it? I think maybe the country people can explain that before I go on about how great living in the city

Speaker C: 00:11:42

is. Mikey, you go for it. You're asking me to defend the choice of all the country people

Speaker B: 00:11:48

to turn up in London and live there. But if the countryside is so great, what are people doing here? That's what I don't understand. Why do most people live in the city? And in fact,

Speaker D: 00:11:59

if you look over the last, I think it's just a very grand scale fear of missing out. It's FUMO on a very grand scale. People, as Mikey outlined, move to towns when they're young, and they want nightlife, and they want fun, and they want excitement. It's all a massive myth. And you sort of quickly become disillusioned with it, as I have, and want to move away.

Speaker A: 00:12:25

But no, it's just economic opportunity or perceived economic opportunity that makes people move to the city, right? That's it. And you don't want to live a long way from your job.

Speaker C: 00:12:33

Isn't it as simple as that? I do think there's something in my dating agency theory. I feel like if every girl in your village has already rejected you, then after a while, something inside you is going to say, maybe I should try another village. And then, but you know,

Speaker B: 00:12:53

you run out of villages before long. Well, yeah, but if that's, but don't, doesn't everyone meet people at work and on Tinder and stuff these days? I mean, do you? How do you meet? Let's say you see a girl in the street. I'm maybe I'm about to show myself up here. But do you go up to them and say,

Speaker C: 00:13:10

you're pretty? Can I go out with you? No, no, you get a job in in their in their place of work. And then you and then you wait until Christmas, find out where they work. You're into Christmas and go to the office party, you know, the old fashioned way. And then if that doesn't work out, you get a new job. People in London are always changing jobs, aren't they? Is that what you do all the time? Yeah, all the time. Yeah, I was a green grocer last week. So let's, let's,

Speaker A: 00:13:34

let's get to the heart of the matter. So look, I mean, Nick, one of the things you said there is these people coming to my hometown. So I suspect one of the one of your key defenses here is going to be the fact that Oh, I'm from here. This is my hometown. And like everyone likes their hometown. So so that's why it just happens to be London. But also, the fact that it is your hometown, you've grown up surrounded by all this wonderful, rich tapestry of that is London. And that's why you love it so much. I mean, am I broadly on the right track? Yeah, I mean, so this is the thing

Speaker B: 00:14:05

id. So there's a thing that's: 1000

Speaker C: 00:15:21

pathetic. One, trees are pretty good. But two, I completely agree that the city is great. And I'd say most of the time in your city in the city, you're not experiencing it like that. But when I go, I what I do every single time I walk down the street, and I go, wow, there's a restaurant from the Eastern Europe. Cool. What is right next to another restaurant from a different place in Eastern Europe. That's a mind blowing. And I feel like a, you know, a child in a candy shop or whatever, I don't know, like a like a like a country bumpkin in the city. Yeah, so it's always like that for me. And I really like the city for that reason. But you can only really appreciate it by not being from there like you had to by pretending to not be from there for a month. Exactly. Exactly. And I've done similar in the

Speaker A: 00:16:15

past, as you said, Nick, not necessarily when I lived in London, but you know, just going a little family holiday in central London in a hotel is absolutely lovely. Beautiful place to visit, as you say, Mikey, and really, as you say, as well, Nick, Peter, you were about to come in

Speaker B: 00:16:28

on something that I think we need Peter's perspective, because he's clearly not a fan.

Speaker D: 00:16:32

Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, I, I was, I definitely was when I was younger. And I just like the sort of the buzz, inverted commas, whatever that is, of the city, I do like the convenience of the city, being able to find any different type of particular type of Eastern European restaurant on the same high street is it has it has its uses, but in the age of the internet and Amazon, much of that kind of convenience is can be replicated elsewhere. And and I'm totally with Mikey on the the visiting, following Nick's model, but just travelling slightly further, I could come I can come in on the weekend and enjoy the quietness of the city of a weekend, should I wish, and I could do so in greater lavish style with all the money that I've saved by not living there. Yeah, yeah. Nick, I feel that the reason nobody lives in the city, the city of London City is because there are no bloody houses because ground rent is too expensive. So it's just corporate. Yes, because of wankers like you moving in. No, that's because London cleared everybody out Highland clearances

Speaker A: 00:17:38

kind of style to make room for businesses. Nick, I don't often say this, but it does feel like

Speaker B: 00:17:43

d that no one ate in the year: 1800

Speaker A: 00:19:12

sorts of opportunities that those people would find for work, maybe don't lend themselves to remote working. But then explain why employment is higher in the countryside. And so therefore, they have to go and work in the city. Sorry, what was your question there? Employment is higher in

Speaker D: 00:19:25

the countryside. Well, they're two separate issues. I mean, the fact that employment is higher in the countryside means that there's more people moving out the countryside and the jobs can't be filled. So there's, you know, those who are able and wanting to work can. The people who live in my mind, people, it feels like living in a city, you're kind of a slave to economic forces. You know, it's not really a choice, you're kind of forced into it to find, find jobs, or as Mikey has put it to find love. If I think, you know, deep down, if you had the choice, people would rather live in the countryside and drive in and visit the city on the train. But it's that they're sort of compelled to buy this state of the modern world to force themselves into smaller boxes, living very close to each other. Mikey, what do people

Speaker B: 00:20:16

do in the countryside? What do they work as? Oh, what they work as? Ah, yeah, I'm not. Yeah, like, I am often amazed when I go to this countryside there. And like, we're up near where my mum's got a cottage in Lincolnshire. And, and there's thousands of people living in this town. Do they all work at the John West packing shop? Yeah. I mean, to be honest, I'm a little

Speaker C: 00:20:38

bit unsure about that. At least one of them's a teacher. And there's about two farmers in the whole countryside, I suppose. So that's a couple. But yeah, I don't really know. I find that a bit baffling too. Haven't you done the research on that? I sort of thought you'd end up with all

Speaker B: 00:20:57

stats. No, it's actually surprising how hard it is to find decent data comparing the country with the city, you can find all kinds of regional things, you know, and, and stuff about the north south divide. But, but, you know, the problem is, every region has a city in it. So you can't really use regional data. The so it's actually quite hard to find out what the difference is. And, and I think from what I can tell, in all honesty, there isn't really a significant difference in most outcomes, you know, even though I mentioned a few things, they're quite small, those differences. So which really surprised me. And I was I was expecting there to be quite a big out, you know, difference in in kind of average outcomes. But and I'm very surprised to find that people in the countryside are about the same as people in cities, for example. But that's, that's, that might be because a lot of them go and work in a city and then commute back. But there is one aspect, though, which I think I want to touch on, because it is probably pertinent to some something I think is the case in cities, which is that it seems and this is evidence from the US, that people who live in the city are more open to experience. Now you could causation questions there, but, but that openness to experiences is linked to innovation, technological innovation. People who live in the city, it may not surprise you are likely to be more extrovert. But people who live in the city are also less agreeable and less conscientious. There's not that much difference in life satisfaction, actually, it seems that life satisfaction is related to income, which is, as I've said, is not significantly different. So what I'm saying is that people who live in the countryside are boring, and introverted and closed minded.

Speaker D: 00:22:50

Is that necessarily a bad thing? If you're surrounded by similar people, that sounds fine.

Speaker B: 00:22:55

Well, if you are, you wouldn't know it, because they're all hiding in their houses. Boring, introverted, and what was the last one? Closed minded.

Speaker D: 00:23:01

Yeah, but they're also you know, they're also several miles apart from each other. So that's

Speaker C: 00:23:05

I think like, yeah, I'm surprised by that. I assume the direction of this conversation was going to go more along the lines of think of all the fascinating things there are to do in the city, which there are lots of like, you know, going to the kinema, what did you call it?

Speaker B: 00:23:21

Anyway, the place where the movie goes.

Speaker C: 00:23:23

And, and, you know, what's there to do in the countryside, except for look at the tree. Yeah, so the boring thing, I think, is one of the really good aspects of being in the countryside. It is quite boring, and being bored is quite relaxing and nice. And the kind of fun you have to get up to is, is more, is more low key, but has a kind of a kind of richer texture to it. But which you probably don't have any idea what I'm talking about. But I'm thinking of a particular example of a friend of mine told me he came, he went to visit some friends, and he went into the kitchen, and they were lying on the floor of the kitchen looking at the ceiling. Is that a common? This isn't, but I feel like maybe after this, after this podcast goes, goes out, it will be. Great.

Speaker D: 00:24:12

An intercounty competition of lying.

Speaker C: 00:24:14

No, wait, I haven't got to the competitive bit yet. They, they had their mouths open, and they were just lying on the floor staring at the ceiling. And he said, well, what are you up to? And they sort of gestured upwards, and they nibbled off the edge of the bottom of a Jaffa cake each and had stuck the orangey bit to the ceiling. And they were waiting to see who could catch the orangey bit in their mouth first. So now I don't think anyone in London would ever have thought of that. And that, that proves it.

Speaker D: 00:24:45

Yeah, I think boredom does have a way of creating invention.

Speaker C: 00:24:50

Yeah, but if necessity is the mother of invention, then boredom is the mother of lols, maybe.

Speaker B: 00:24:56

Is it true, though? I mean, I went to, I've been to the countryside a few times. In fact, my family are actually from the countryside. So I've been I have been there a few times. And I've and but I wouldn't say that the frequency I mean, the things that I can do in the city include things like going down the down the road to the shops, and just getting something that I need. And Amazon? Well, not if it's a pint of milk, and or a block of cheese. And What about Tesco's direct?

Speaker A: 00:25:25

A wonderful village shop where I can get milk and also a nice cheery smile from the person who works

Speaker B: 00:25:30

Can you get Guanciale and provolone? I wouldn't want those things. They sound terribly foreign. Yeah, I guess as long as you can get a good Bramley apple and a loaf of bread, then no, I say, that's the thing. For me, it's the instant opportunity to just go and do things. But I having said that, I feel like when we're in the countryside, it's not that the frequency of doing things is significantly lower. You know, people go to people still go out to eat, but they go out to eat at the one so called gastropub, which has a pie, instead of one of, you know, 100 different restaurants that they can get to. It's like, it's like, I still think they're doing the same number of things. They're just those things are less good. And there's less choice about them.

Speaker A: 00:26:12

Look, there's a question I want to move on to because actually, we're quite a way with surprisingly near the end of this, actually. I still don't feel we've got quite to the heart of the of the raging country versus city debate. But actually, maybe my question at the end will help settle that. But in the meantime, I've just got one thing, which is, I think we frame this as country versus city. But actually, what we frame this as so far is UK countryside versus London, right? Because actually, yeah, I'm not a huge fan of cities. But I really do not like London. I found a city that's quite hard to navigate. And, you know, without, I mean, we can all guess also that for that, Rosa, give you a shout out to you. Ways. Yeah, so I think there are cities that I visited around the world. I just think I don't even in the UK. I mean, that are wonderful places where I could imagine living, you know. So but just for example, I think possibly my favorite city I've been to in the world is probably Rio de Janeiro. Which is I could definitely live there. You got nice wide open space, you got bloody great, you got not just a beach, loads of beaches, all sorts of stuff going on. But it's a city of 10 million people. But I could definitely live there. And that's just what I'm sure there are many other places. So I think we've been I think it's just not it's not a cities that are shit. It's just London, Nick. What Peter, Mikey, Nick, what do you think? So what I've said there? I know, I

Speaker D: 00:27:41

think they're all kind of I think London's up there with one of the best ones, actually, if I had to live in any city, I would probably choose London. God, they because a lot of the sort of smaller, sort of so called medium sized towns that in that call themselves cities in the UK, a lot of them are pretty terrible. And they the high street comprises of a sort of closed down Woolworths, and a couple of charity shops and a vaping shop. That's more or less what you get on most high streets these days. They're kind of the worst of both worlds. It's sort of like a sort of sub island of suburbs being stuck out in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, I think you got to go big and go either live in a in a barn conversion miles away from anybody or you got to live in

Speaker C: 00:28:25

London. Mikey, what do you think? I mean, I feel like you might have just alienated all of us there. I mean, I quite like London. I mean, I, my prediction is that those two ingredients that Nick came up with just to make us all feel small because we've never heard of them. If you're listeners in Burnley, for example, won't be thinking I can get them in the corner shop, possibly. So you know, will Nick be just as happy with anywhere else? I suspect not.

Speaker B: 00:28:55

Well, it's I mean, this is why I think, you know, we talked before about the sort of widening of the moral circle as being a kind of key ingredient of progress over the last sort of 200 years. And I say progress in the sense of sort of broadly understood the move away from kind of factionalism and tribalism and violence towards a, you know, seeing seeing the world in terms of a sort of, you know, bunch of roughly equally worthwhile individuals about whom we should be equally concerned. And I think life in the city predisposes you to that kind of mentality. You know, you have that you have to be more tolerant if you live in a city going to be more tolerant, you're going to be exposed to more things. You know, if you I remember my, my, my granddad who grew up in the countryside in Ireland, he just could not get on with any form of foreign food at all. And it wasn't because he was being racist or anything. It was nothing like that at all. It's just that he just didn't like understand, for example, Chinese takeaways. He didn't understand how you could have the rice and the things mixed up together, for example. And but living in the city, you're kind of your horizons will certainly expand you have they have to to accommodate all the things that are out there, including including grand Charlie and provolone. And if you haven't got grand Charlie and provolone, you can't make spaghetti carbonara, because you can't make it with with Morrison's bacon and Parmesan cheese. I'm sorry. What's one Charlie? It's pig. It's cured pig cheek. If you and if you're thinking of using a bit of a bit of rural Italian.

Speaker C: 00:30:36

I'm so glad I can be unhappy now whenever I try and make carbonara. I didn't realize that was an opportunity. I thought I was doing it right. Thank you. Opening my eyes.

Speaker A: 00:30:47

Um, let's finish this off. I think arguments like this are best demonstrated anecdotally. And I rather liked your example of the Jaffa cake competition with bits on the ceiling, Mikey. So that being the case, tell us a moment that was in your urban experience or your rural experience that that you that you look back on now or even at that time going, yes, this is why I must live here. This is where I belong, right? Maybe you can't surpass the Jaffa cake. Maybe there's all sorts of moments like that, Mikey, I don't know. Who wants to go first? I have. Well, I have a

Speaker D: 00:31:21

real I have, I witnessed a sort of slightly distressing incident, nothing violent or anything that made me decide I definitely don't want to bring up a child in London. I was, I was taking the bus. And I can't remember where it was somewhere central London. Very busy. I think the tubes had failed. But I was taking the bus anyway, the tubes had gone to pot. And this bus was, the buses were really busy. And there was a woman trying to get on the bus with a pram. And she was already on the bus when I got on. And she was quite happy where she was. She was the bus was filling up and the bus driver was trying to force her off the bus. I think there was a disabled passenger trying to get on. So quite rightly, she, she should probably have given way. But it was it was a terrible evening, dark, raining very hard. And the last you know, the last thing this poor woman wanted to do is get off the bus, she wants to just just get on with the journey. And arguably, there's probably not going to be a pram on the next one. So the so the wheelchair, we could possibly have given way. But the rest of the customers were really, really ganging up on this poor woman. And that just made me think I'm never ever going to get on a bus with a pram. Well, at least there is a bus, you wouldn't get one in the countryside. But I'm totally on the side of those passengers as well.

Speaker B: 00:32:40

I would get their own lives to live. I want to hear Peter, I want to hear Peter. In the countryside,

Speaker D: 00:32:46

I would afford be able to afford to have a car and just have the convenience of just driving

Speaker B: 00:32:50

myself. Because what about the poor woman with the pram? She might not be able to afford a car.

Speaker D: 00:32:54

No, but if she lived in the if she if she could afford if she every whatever she was earning in the city, the money she save on rent, living in an equivalent size house in the countryside,

Speaker B: 00:33:03

she could afford a very nice car. I hope you informed her of that to help. I think all those

Speaker A: 00:33:07

people on the bus were just impatient. I just want to get home to their provolone and one Charlie.

Speaker B: 00:33:11

Yes, I'm on their side here. Just a pram doesn't give you the right to hold up, you know, 60 people who need to get back for their supper. I think it wasn't her that was holding up as a

Speaker D: 00:33:21

bus driver who was refusing to use the bus. He's got a supper to worry about as well. I'm on his side. If I bent the rules and carried on, I'm nothing. The whole city seemed to descend on

Speaker A: 00:33:34

this poor woman. Yeah. I think I think, yeah, anecdotes are definitely the right way to go

Speaker B: 00:33:40

ated by their need to get the: 1043

Speaker D: 00:35:20

you just get the six o'clock out of Paddington at that point, the first train out of Paddington? I was in Trafalgar Square. Well, yeah, but wherever you're going to the country, just if you're staying up all night, you just get the first train home. Well, you probably have to go straight to work if you were the kind of person who needed to get the train home. No, but us hardy country folk will have an overnight bag and we'll just have a shower in the office and be ready to go. I don't want to hear from you two anymore.

Speaker C: 00:35:47

Mikey. Yeah, I'd say all my stories are fairly heavily boredom based and therefore don't translate brilliantly into anecdote form. But I guess, I mean, one experience which is not, it doesn't make a great story, but it's continuous throughout my life is going to visit people in London, taking the train up, turning up and then going, oh, let's go to the park and, you know, walking across a few streets and waiting at red lights and then going into the park and jostling past a sort of turnstile of people. And then kind of eventually you get to a place where if you look in the right direction, you can't see any buildings anymore, but you can see a swarm of other humans who've all crammed themselves in there. And you think, this is what it would look like in back at home if you crammed a whole load of people in here. And that's a special sort of, it's like a treat to be treated to by your city friends who are unaware that they're showing you an incredibly budgeted version of what's around all the time. So that is, that kind of always solidifies my thoughts about

Speaker B: 00:36:54

the city. Well, I want to say that whenever Mikey comes over, he doesn't even leave the basement.

Speaker C: 00:37:00

So we go into the basement and we shutter the one window and it's just like being in the countryside

Speaker A: 00:37:07

when it's raining. It's great. Yeah. I don't think we need any anecdotes from me. I think that, oh, well, but Fraser, come on. I can't think of any actually. You're the romantic,

Speaker B: 00:37:19

you're the guy who's presumably had some epiphany about how the countryside, the English countryside in Lincolnshire, if you don't mind, is so fabulous. It's just a thought. I can't think

Speaker C: 00:37:27

instead of answering the question you asked, just make up your own question and answer that. Yeah. That's what he normally does. As a fan of the show, I detected a theme.

Speaker A: 00:37:38

Is that what I usually do? Yeah. Okay. That's interesting. I do actually make up the rules and you're quite right. Well, I mean, I sort of do have all the stuff I can think I've done in the countryside. I can't really mention on the podcast that it was too fun and I can't talk about it on a podcast really. Was it like the Wicker Man? Yeah, just like that. And actually, I've had too many fun times in the city, to be honest. So I just don't, I'm drawing a blank here,

Speaker B: 00:38:10

to be honest. I think you're a deluded romantic and you have a kind of, you know, ruralist vision, a pastoral vision of what your life is going to be like. And what you don't realise is that you're going to be there. And it'll be just like, just like life in the city. But with less

Speaker A: 00:38:24

opportunities to eat kebabs. Do you know what I think? Do you know, I think probably what spoilt me and sort of skewed me for the rest of my life was my first ever kiss was on a riverbank in rural Bedfordshire in the springtime. And, you know, with blackbirds chirping away in the bushes and so on, and cows lowing etc. And I think, you know, that mixture of the of the bucolic with romantic and the seminal, that's, that's what sort of, you know, set me up for country living. Mine was in the 100 Club. How about that, then? Perfect contrast. I don't know what the 100 Club is. Oh, I presume it's an ingredient in carbonara. Very famous London. Yeah. Okay, well, I think, you know, often at the end of these, I feel that we haven't resolved anything. Unfortunately, Nick, I'm sorry. But I think in this one, we have. I just don't, I just don't. And I must admit, you always beat me in arguments, Nick. But I think on this one, I have to say with the big guns of Peter and even the bigger guns of Mikey, I think we've sort of blown you out of the water here, Nick. It's official, country is way better than city. Okay, on that note, I just want to say, thank you very much. How do I usually finish?

Speaker C: 00:39:51

You sometimes say I've really enjoyed this, but you haven't said it this time. So I'm a bit worried. I was hoping for that.

Speaker A: 00:39:59

So I think we need to wrap up there. I've really enjoyed this. So thank you, as always, for listening to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast. I'm here with, I've been here with Peter Coghill and Nick Hare of Aleph Insights. But a special thank you to Mikey Lear, country expert. Thank you for your time and for your insights and your expertise. And thank you to our listeners for listening. Until next time, goodbye.