The Art of the Return

Speaker A: 00:00:00

Hello and welcome to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast produced by me, Fraser McGruer, for Aleph. In this series of podcasts, we take a look at interesting topics and discuss what we think they tell us about analysis and decision making. I'm here with Nick Hare and Jordan Fermanis of Aleph, and this week we're discussing David Cameron's return to frontline politics. Jordan, go for it.

Speaker B: 00:00:28

Yes. Who's David Cameron? What's happened? Recently, former British Prime Minister David Cameron returned to politics quite spectacularly to the role of Foreign Secretary after a cabinet reshuffle in a number of portfolios. But I think, so the interesting thing about it was that it was a huge surprise. And there's some quite humorous clips of television presenters with these like exasperated shocks when David Cameron gets out of the car at number 10 Downing Street to go and see Rishi Sunak, the Prime Minister to become... The real Prime Minister. Yeah, the real Prime Minister to become Foreign Secretary. But I think what we want to talk about as a result of that is the idea of a return.

Speaker A: 00:01:19

So I think it might be useful to just look at the David Cameron story briefly. Why is this of interest to us in this particular context, Nick?

Speaker C: 00:01:27

lair became Prime Minister in: 1997

Speaker A: 00:03:48

Okay, so that's what's happened with David Cameron. But I guess what we want to talk about is why is this a compelling story, right? Why does this interest us of the prodigal son, right? And so perhaps just also what you can do, Nick, is, I think you've got some other examples of, I don't know if it's politicians or something.

Speaker C: 00:04:08

What I will say, just looking back at the political realm, he's certainly not the first person to have made a return to politics, because it's actually quite, it's not uncommon for former Prime Ministers to come back. Alec Douglas-Hughes was Foreign Secretary, having, you know, after a couple of years after finishing being Prime Minister. Arthur Balfour, same, Lord John Russell, Arthur Wellesley, better known as the Duke of Wellington. Three former Prime Ministers have come back as the Home Secretary. So those are the kind of big jobs. I mean, Prime Ministers, of course, have come back as Prime Minister. So I think Harold Wilson, you know, among other people, Winston Churchill, that's relatively common. Less common in the sort of around these times. Yeah, but in the US, it's very rare. I mean, in general, they don't really have the same. Obviously, in the UK, for foreign listeners who might not know about our constitution, Prime Ministers and, you know, senior office officials like the Foreign Secretary and the Home Secretary are all MPs, and they're all drawn from the same pool of MPs. Whereas in the US, the President is a totally different job. Having said that, some Presidents have come back as, you know, Senators or whatever. But it is not, as a former Prime Minister, you just become an MP. So you can, you know, you're still eligible to do other jobs. It's not like you have to be re-elected.

Speaker A: 00:05:39

Although Cameron isn't an MP, right? But, you know, but he's a Lord.

Speaker C: 00:05:42

He's a Lord. Yeah. That's how you circumvent this stuff. But so in the US, it's only happened once that a President has served two non-consecutive terms, for example, Grover Cleveland, 22nd and 24th President of the US. So the point is that you've been the Prime Minister, you've been on a high, you leave and then you come back as something else. And I think we want to talk about when that story is good and when it's bad. And if you look back, you know, I think there are some much better stories of kind of interesting returns that people have made. You'll have heard of King Wenceslas II of Bohemia. So his dad was killed in a battle and then he was locked in a castle for five years by his uncle Otto von Brandenburg. But then when he was released, he gathered all the support of his nobles and then came back to claim his throne, became a very powerful monarch in the 13th century. Then Justinian II was another. He was overthrown by one of his governors, exiled, had his nose cut off and then came back heading an army of Bulgarian Slav horsemen and retook the throne. He's not the plague guy, Justinian II, is he? Don't know. Might be. But later on, he was overthrown a second time. And that time they just murdered him. So that was the end of him. Harold Hadrada was quite interesting. You know, the guy who lost the Battle of Stamford Bridge. He was defeated. He was defeated fighting his brother in Norway and then went into exile several years in the Byzantine Empire and then came back again, gathered his support, came back and retook the throne. Casimir the Restorer of Poland. Similar story. Forced into exile. And then the country collapsed and he was basically asked to come back. Alexander Nevsky, another famous example. So he was banished after winning a battle against the Swedes. And then the Novgorodians essentially begged him to come back because only he could save them from the Teutonic Horde.

Speaker A: 00:07:47

This reminds me of when you tried to fire me from this podcast about a month or two ago. And then, lo and behold, two weeks later, begging me, begging me.

Speaker C: 00:07:55

That's right. And then in modern times, we've got people like Nelson Mandela. Activist, imprisoned for 30 years, released, becomes president. Look in other fields. Who do we think of? Robert Downey Jr. People like that. Career high in the 80s, struggled with substance abuse, disappeared from the radar back, big time. The Rolling Stones. The Beatles. They've just had a single released. So, you know... I think some of this is stretching stuff, but keep going. Steve Jobs, ousted from Apple, the company he helped create. And then, you know, came back and essentially was pivotal to its great subsequent success with the iPod and the iPhone and all of that. So, you know, there are lots of real life stories of people who've, for one reason or another, disappeared and then made a return. And yeah, I mean, I think it's also something that is quite prevalent in fiction.

Speaker A: 00:08:57

Yeah. OK, so that's a lot of factual stuff, real life stuff. Jordan, give us some more examples.

Speaker B: 00:09:05

So I think probably the most famous return in fiction, you have to go back to the Iliad, Homer's Iliad, and Odysseus' homecoming after 10 years of exile to the island of Ithaca. To reunite with his wife, Penelope. But I think... And that, I think, spawned this kind of theme of returns in literature. Following that, you had Virgil's Aeneid, obviously. You've got James Joyce's The Odyssey as well, of course, modelled on the Iliad. But then it's a kind of... It's a trope that continues right the way through to modern contemporary literature as well. Military stories, civil war stories, this idea of kind of leaving and then returning, coming home. Yeah, it's like the buildings romance. Yeah.

Speaker C: 00:09:58

You know, the departure, the change, and then the return. Yeah. And it feels like it's important that everything's gone to shit since you left. I think that's true in the case of Odysseus, isn't it? Yeah.

Speaker B: 00:10:10

And I think, you know, there's a few sort of ingredients for a successful literary return.

Speaker C: 00:10:19

Yeah, so let's look at this. Why is it? I mean, I think... Hold on. Sorry. I just want to... We haven't mentioned The Lord of the Rings, and that's very important because the third book of The Lord of the Rings is called The Return of the King. The idea being, spoiler alert, if you don't know about the story. Does the king come back? No. Well, not really, because he isn't a king to begin with. So you've got Aragorn, who comes from a line of Numenorean kings, but hundreds and hundreds of years in the past, and eventually comes back to lead the free peoples of Middle Earth in a victory against Sauron and becomes king of Gondor, which was sort of his birthright, if you believe in that kind of thing. But I have to say, no one voted for him. But that's not the only return, of course, because the other great return in Lord of the Rings is Frodo, who, of course, leaves the safety of the Shire, becomes a hero, and then returns back to the Shire, where it has, as we're saying, sort of needs to happen, slightly gone to shit, and has to sort of restore order there, which he can do now because he's returned a stronger and better individual.

Speaker A: 00:11:25

Yeah. But also, I don't think he is the biggest return. What's the name of the wizard bloke? Gandalf. Gandalf. Yeah. Arguably an even bigger return.

Speaker C: 00:11:31

I don't know. He gets killed by a Balrog of Morgoth. Yeah. And comes back even stronger. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B: 00:11:37

It's kind of linked to the hero's journey, in a way, which we've spoken about before in the podcast. But yeah, there's a kind of narrative arc, I think, to a literary return.

Speaker A: 00:11:48

So what do we need? So, I mean, I'm slightly worried that, you know...

Speaker C: 00:11:52

Are you worried that David Cameron might not meet all the sort of... Yeah, no, I'm not worried at all about that. ...of a triumphant return.

Speaker A: 00:11:59

No, I'm not. Yeah. I don't think there's any worries about how that's going to go. So, no, I'm just worried because... Are we going to be done and dusted with this podcast? Is this a quick one? Is it a short one? I don't know. We've got to drill into the features. Yeah.

Speaker C: 00:12:13

I think there's some very important distinguishing features that we want to see.

Speaker A: 00:12:17

Because I know that... And a good quality return. I'm going to sit here going... I'm going to imitate Nick, right? I go, oh, you're going to say, oh, it's all just a story. We like stories. Okay. So, newsflash. I think this is all about stories. We like stories. Okay. And it appeals to something in the human psyche. And that's mapped onto our literatures. Because, you know, of course, it's a reflection of our psyche. I think that's all what's going on here. Anyway, let's break it down. What's going on? What do we need? What are the constituents in these stories?

Speaker B: 00:12:47

Yeah. Okay. The first one, I think, is underdog factor. I think there is something compelling about a figure regaining power against the odds after past failures, perhaps, or falls from grace. And I think kind of, to bring it back to narrative, I think political returns often play into the underdog narrative. I think the second factor is surprise and drama. I think, and that was kind of evident in the David Cameron example, as well. There was a huge element of surprise, which I think we're kind of intrigued by. I think that the last one, I think, is the idea of redemption. I think there's a kind of strong feeling there of like, comebacks offering an opportunity to rewrite the story, or, you know, that kind of thing as well. So I think those are the three main features I've come across.

Speaker A: 00:13:45

Yeah, no, I definitely agree. I mean, I agree with all those, but I think, yeah, the redemption one's a really, really strong factor.

Speaker C: 00:13:51

Well, I think we may be looking at different categories of return. So I think there's four main things we need to ask to characterize a return. Firstly, did you leave on a high or a low? Now, this already sets up two different potential arcs. Because there's the, if you left on a high, so you did a great job and then you bowed out, that's one option. But if you finished on a high and were kind of forced out, which obviously has happened, like, you know, things were successful, you were a good king or whatever, and then you're forced out wrongly, you've been wronged, hey, presto, we've got the balance books need redressing, don't they? Whereas if you just leave on a high, you know, then that sets up a different type of potential return, which is, if you like, is the kind of coming back for one last job. We need this guy back because things have gone wrong. Approis-moi la deluge kind of problem. But then there's, of course, the, you know, the kind of you've cocked everything up kind of problem, which sets up the redemption arc story instead. So I think we've already got three potential sorts of stories there. But then you've got to ask as to, yeah, so you've got that. That's essentially what happened. Were you good or bad when you were there? And did you choose to leave or were you forced out? Those two questions kind of set up the beginning. And then what happens when you return? So were you asked to return? I think that's very important. If you have the kind of you being reluctantly thrust back into power because, you know, because you were so good and now the people want you back. Or you could, you know, potentially the kind of cleaning up the mess scenario. You know, you're being brought back because you've got to sort this stuff out that you did. Yeah, but I don't think that's very common. But then we have the, you know, the crucial question of when you returned, was it a success? Because I think, you know, it's almost if you get those things, the yeses and those wrong in this checklist, what you have instead is a simple tragedy. You know, you get the person who was a great king and then they come back and it all goes horribly wrong because of their, you know, because of some kind of character failure. So I think, you know, so the triumphometer is, you know, score one for a yes on each of these four questions. Did you leave on a high? Did you choose to leave? Were you asked to return? And was your return a success? So I think David Cameron at the moment is arguably potentially on one of those. I would say certainly didn't leave on a high. Possibly you could say he chose to leave. So in that respect, it's kind of good. But he wasn't, I know the prime minister asked him to return, but I don't think he was back, you might say, by popular demand. And was it a success? Too early to tell. But, you know, we shall watch his career with interest.

Speaker A: 00:16:56

Yeah, absolutely. As you were talking through that, it made me think of, we missed another political return. Lula in Brazil, right? And I was just thinking through those, how you explain it there.

Speaker C: 00:17:09

So what does he score?

Speaker A: 00:17:10

So he definitely left on a high, the most popular, unusual, I think his popularity grew whilst in power, which is very unusual. And but because they have a two presidential, like a lot of constitutions. So he had to leave anyway. But what's interesting is a little twist is when he went away, of course, it was a far right government, Bolsonaro, that came in and utterly sort of, I don't 100% know the truth.

Speaker C: 00:17:36

Is he a sort of populist left winger, Lula?

Speaker A: 00:17:38

Well, he started out as a super radical populist left winger back way, it was the guy from Nicaragua, like Ortega, like very, very left wing. And in, let's say, the 60s, he started out as a trade union leader, of course. And what happened would just run every four years would run for president and never get anywhere. But he moderated his position over the years, over the decades and was eventually elected and was actually, by my interpretation, I was a Latin American analyst at the time, was a pretty good force. He was a sort of a sort of responsible leader. Anyway, whilst he was away, he then got imprisoned. And sort of, you know, everything got torn up by the right wing government. Was he guilty? Was he not? Who quite knows. But then was released. And then was definitely, so point two, definitely by popular demand. Right. People want him to run again. And he ran and he won. Verdict still, he's still, you know, obviously, he's incumbent now. So was he going to be successful or not? I don't know. But let's see.

Speaker B: 00:18:37

I think, but I think kind of key differences, especially in that example, like, Lula returned as president. I think the thing, David Cameron didn't return as prime minister. He's returned as a foreign secretary, which is still a big job, but it's not as big as the one he held previously. So I wonder if that, it's like, is the comeback is, I don't know if that. It quite counts. Quite counts as a triumphant return, because it's like, well, yes, you've come back to politics, but you have, you've kind of come back a bit lower than you left it.

Speaker A: 00:19:07

Yeah.

Speaker C: 00:19:07

Yeah. I don't think this is setting up to be one of the all-time great triumphal returns, basically.

Speaker A: 00:19:14

And just to, sorry, and just one other thing that's got me talking about, thinking about rather, is Kenny Dalglish. Okay. Okay.

Speaker C: 00:19:22

You're slightly out of my comfort zone here. Yeah. I've never heard of him.

Speaker A: 00:19:25

So famously, a Glaswegian footballer, amazing striker, started his career at Celtic, Glasgow Celtic, and then moved to Liverpool and was, you know, just one of the best strikers of Liverpool's history. Went on to win all sorts of championships.

Speaker C: 00:19:40

He was kind of 70s type time. Yeah, 70s into 80s. And then didn't he manage?

Speaker A: 00:19:44

But then he went and managed them, and he did, I don't think he won the league with him. I could be wrong, but never quite, was never quite as successful as a manager, it was my feeling. And he might even had a couple of, I think he had a couple of stints as manager, actually. And the second one was not as successful as the first, I think. Yeah, you've got to leave them once and for all, I think. And he did win the league somewhere else as a manager at Blackburn. But anyway.

Speaker C: 00:20:08

Well, have you heard of a lad called Gareth Southgate?

Speaker A: 00:20:10

I haven't. Yeah, there we go. How about that?

Speaker C: 00:20:13

He was a national joke when he missed a penalty. I can't remember under what circumstances, but then he came back as manager of the England team and we lost again. On penalties.

Speaker A: 00:20:23

Yeah, that's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, I derailed us there. I mean, Nick, what are we going to go on to?

Speaker C: 00:20:29

Yeah, I think I think Jordan's talked a bit about the sort of, yeah, how you might. So I've provided a list of things where you might decompose the arc a bit, but I think Jordan's given us these sort of big overarching arcs, you know, which and I think Redemption is one of them. But also, so I'm just having a think about, like, what aspects of these? So, you know, we often talk about why is that particular types of story, particular story archetypes? We like them. And so I was just sort of thinking, what do these what virtues, if you like, do these stories help promote? What things do we learn? What things are we encouraging by telling these stories? And I think there are quite a few, actually, like quite apart from success is better than failure, you know, because so I think that I mean, almost like the last question, when you return, is it successful? That that is almost necessary. If you don't have that, then it's a tragic ending. So you've got to end. You've got to have that return. The return has to turn out to be a success. So there's the sort of general look. Being successful is good. I mean, that's fairly obvious. But I think, you know, the idea of someone leaving when they're doing a good job is all is always sort of promoting the idea of humility, promoting the idea that you shouldn't seek status. It's telling a story about how, you know, how really what we want is a king who's there almost reluctantly, you know, that this guy's done a great job and he's he's gone into retirement to go and, you know, like become a bean farmer like Jimmy Carter. We love all that. And, you know, and that almost actively resists that call back to power. It's almost the sort of platonic ideal of a of a, you know, a kind of leader who is who is there almost, you know, against their will. Yeah, the reluctant hero. Exactly. And so and I think that's why we like that whole that whole, you know, the character who is called back for one last job, the kind of Rambo figure, you know, who who was amazing. He was the best in the world. And now they're a cattle farmer or something. And, you know, I think I think and I think all of that is to encourage it encourages us to see as a virtue, you know, not, you know, deliberately not seeking power. So it's almost like saying what we want is competence without the desire for power. And this story has all that. It has the lack of desire for power and it has the competence to be a good leader when you're when you're actually there. So, yeah, so I and to a sense, you can in a sense, you can say, well, the redemption story, which is a version of this is a is sort of encouraging you to self-improve and sort of almost saying if first you don't succeed, you know, try and try again. But but to encourage you to say, you know, you you you can it's not all over, you know, leaving power. There's all these examples, historical and fictional, you know, where someone has lost everything and then come back to regain it triumphantly. So I think all of those things, the things that are just obviously have a fusion of

Speaker A: 00:23:42

integrity, competence and perseverance. And yeah, sorry, Jordan.

Speaker C: 00:23:48

All the things that you would say David Cameron has.

Speaker A: 00:23:50

In abundance. Yeah, yeah. Humility as well.

Speaker B: 00:23:53

Resilience as well. I was also thinking authenticity as well, because there's something about especially if you leave on a low, like having to come back and say, yes, I got these things wrong, admitting your errors and then kind of, you know, turning it turning it around, I suppose. There's a there's a there's an authenticity marking there as well. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker C: 00:24:15

And it's interesting, I suppose, on the non-returners, on the rest of us, there's something of a kind of encouragement to be potentially forgiving. And I mean, there is, you know, you might have I mean, everyone's heard of the prisoner's dilemma, but there's a very famous experiment in the 70s and 80s. Well, I mean, it's a sort of long running thing that people people do frequently, which is this kind of tournament where you get different prisoners dilemma strategies to play each other. And the one that sort of routinely wins is the one that is both punishing and forgiving at the same time. So it will generally is the strategy where you start by cooperating. But if the person defects against you, then the next game you defect against them. But if they cooperate again, then you cooperate again to them. And so Robert Axelrod ran this experiment, wrote a book called The Evolution of Cooperation. And I think it's interesting how that maps into, you know, that that is the successful strategy. It is both it's punishing. It doesn't give it doesn't cut you any slack. If you defect, then you get defected back. But it also is willing to give you a chance to turn things around. And it does better than, you know, things like the grim strategy, where as soon as you get defected against, that's it, you defect for the rest of the game, for example. So I feel like this sort of idea of a return has all of those elements to it, which probably, you know, well, I think we've discussed a whole load of, you know, positive features, positive sort of aspects of human nature that these stories encourage. So it makes sense to me that they're universal.

Speaker A: 00:25:56

Absolutely. Okay, right. Let's round things off. I got a couple of questions. I can't quite decide. By the way, I think you guys know this, but I don't ever think these questions up as we're speaking, right? So it's utterly not planned. I think you, yeah.

Speaker C: 00:26:10

Yeah, I think that's obvious to our listeners.

Speaker A: 00:26:15

So first one is, no, who or what would you like to see experience a triumphant return? Okay, you can choose real life or you can choose literature. Or another question. Give me an example of your own return that was meant to be triumphant and possibly was triumphant or maybe it was a failure. I don't know. I think the last one would be the most interesting to hear. Okay, I'll kick things off to get our juices flowing. I think the first one, predictably, I have my own personal return, which was years ago when I had a telesales job and I was in that job for, it was my first job as a non-teacher. I did that for six months and I left on a high to go on to greater things, okay, to go somewhere else flogging sponsorship over the phone. I probably got fired from that job after about two months. Right. And I went back to the first place sort of and said, hey, what do you reckon? I'd like to come back, please. And of course, they bit my hand off because I'd been so amazing when I was there. And I think I was there for about two weeks and I just kind of, it just fizzled out. I was just a bit bored by it all. And I just went and saw them and said, I think I'm going to leave. Actually, I'm a bit, you know, I've kind of had enough. And I remember saying, does the manager want to have a word with me, have a chat, like an exit thing? And my boss went and spoke to him, then came back and said, no, you're okay, just go, it's fine. And it was just all very, very much a damp squib. So it was a shame. It was an untriumphant return. Triumphant return, I'd like to see, I'd like to see Gordon Brown. I'd like to see him come back.

Speaker C: 00:27:53

Oh, God. Okay. I suppose he's got the first ingredient of a sort of disgraceful exit. I think he's got integrity. And I think he's competent. You know, anyway. He was a great chancellor. I mean, that was where it all went wrong. I mean, it's a Greek tragedy because Tony Blair was an amazing prime minister. I don't care what you think, listeners. I think he was an amazing prime minister. And I think Gordon Brown was an amazing chancellor. And as a pair, they were brilliant. They were the Beatles. They were the Lennon and McCartney of British politics. His ambition was his downfall because he's just obviously going to be a terrible prime minister, Gordon Brown.

Speaker A: 00:28:29

Well, you just pissed all over my chips. Thank you. But arguably, because I was going to say last. He's not coming back. Yeah, I don't know. But you could argue that our last great prime minister, you could make an argument for Gordon Brown, and I accept what you've said. But you could, you'd have a stronger case, probably, if you're saying the last proper great prime minister, Tony Blair. I think that wouldn't, I don't think it's particularly, you know, I'd be happy arguing that.

Speaker C: 00:28:53

Yeah, I do think, I think we might have been saying Boris Johnson, if it weren't for COVID. I think he was very unlucky. I think he could have, he could have really grown into the job of Boris Johnson.

Speaker A: 00:29:04

Well, it's, yeah, he, yeah, it was his eye to detail as well. So attention to detail. Um, right. One of you, go for it.

Speaker B: 00:29:10

I found, bring back Jules. Jules?

Speaker A: 00:29:15

Who's Jules? Who? Oh, Duels.

Speaker B: 00:29:17

Oh, you mean the activity of dueling?

Speaker C: 00:29:18

Good. Should make a triumphant return. Should make a triumphant return. That's a good way to sort out some problems.

Speaker B: 00:29:25

Good call. Speaking of Boris Johnson. And I think actual good journalism. I'd like to see the comeback of good journalism. I think we've gone down a bit of a sewer recently. Free education, I'd like to see a return of.

Speaker C: 00:29:42

Absolutely. He's interpreted this very nicely. Yeah, I kind of like this.

Speaker A: 00:29:47

When education, free education comes walking through the, into the room and in parades and everyone's going, wow.

Speaker C: 00:29:53

And big wagon wheels and white dog poos. Yeah. Nick? Yeah. I've had a few failed triumphant returns myself. Failed by my own standards, I would say. One massive success by anyone else's. Well, the thing is that, you know, I've, I remember coming back to my old secondary school after having left for a different sixth form and sort of seeing myself as if it really, I thought, well, it's, you know, I've, I'm in this new, exciting, changed person. Were you invited back to give a speech or no? Yeah, to go to this sort of photography event thing. Okay. I wasn't invited back as a hero. No, no, it was literally, it was like six months later or something. I was just going back with some, to meet some friends of mine. And I felt, but I felt like, you know, I felt as soon as I got back that I was just, I was just me again, you know? And the similar thing happened when I left the civil service and, and I came back to, you know, for someone's leaving drinks. And I thought, well, I'm private sector guy now. I'm director of a company. I'm a big shot. I'm going to walk in and everyone will, you know, turn around and whisper pointing. Yeah. Be admiring my, my pinstripe suit and my Rolex watch. Yeah, yeah. But actually it just nothing of that sort happened. People asked a few questions and that was it. Um, but so, so I, I think it's, it's dangerous trying to set yourself up for a triumphant return because the problem is that, you know, you might have changed, you might be different, but they don't know that. So word of warning there for David Cameron. Don't expect us to, you know, see the change that you've, uh, you've, whatever's happened inside you. Um, but it, what do I, who do I want to make a triumphant return? Easy peasy. Michael Bean. Who's Michael Bean? Who's Michael Bean? Um, played, uh, Kyle Reese in, um, in, uh, the Terminator played Hicks in aliens. He was like going to be the biggest action star ever. And then he apparently wasn't really into fame and publicity and stuff. So he kind of fizzled out. Uh, you know, he's still acting, I think, but it's a shame. I want him to come back as a big mega star. And I know he's like probably in his sixties or something, but I don't care. I want Michael Bean back on my screen. Um, and it also rhymes. So I might put that on a t-shirt.

Speaker A: 00:32:10

Okay. All right. Let's stop there. Come back. If you, he's probably out there listening. Michael Bean. You want him back. The demand's there. Okay. We'll wrap it up there. Um, thank you as always for listening to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast. I'm Fraser McGruer. I've been here with Jordan Fermanis and Nick Hare of Aleph. Until next time. Goodbye.