Rude Vs Polite

Speaker A: 00:00:00

Hello and welcome to the Cognitive Engineering podcast produced by me Fraser McGruer for Aleph Insights. In this series of podcasts we take a look at interesting topics and discuss what we think they tell us about analysis and decision making. I'm here with Nick Hare and Chris Wragg of Aleph Insights and this week we're discussing is being polite better than being rude?

Speaker B: 00:00:25

kind of stable up until about: 2007

Speaker C: 00:05:39

this analysis. So what you're saying is that you'd expect approval among Republicans to go up when he was rude. Correct. If that was true. And you're saying that that doesn't, that doesn't. That's

Speaker B: 00:05:50

not borne out by this study. And then the final thing they've done is they've looked at basically altering some of Trump's messages and presenting a more polite one, a more polite version of the same message and a less polite version and a kind of medium polite version, and then looked at the impact on again, Trump supporters and so on to say, has this changed your view of President Trump? And what they found is that the more civil, civilly phrased ones had an impact on Trump opponents. They made them feel more favorable about him. They changed their view. The less civil ones had no impact on anybody. They, you know, people had already formed their views, maybe because the baseline is he's uncivil. So that didn't change people's opinions. But if he was more civil, he was more likely, according to this controlled bit of evidence, you know, artificial bit of evidence, he was more likely to win round his opponents. So, so that's, that's the study is, you know, an intriguing study. As I said, it's got got limitations, but it begs the question, you know, who, who's right? Is it better in politics and in life to be rude or polite? Nick? I'm going to go more for the life direction,

Speaker C: 00:07:22

because that's what I've looked at. It's a bit difficult to think about. I mean, I think politeness and sort of niceness and kindness are slightly bundled up together, just in terms of thinking the difference between them. And I would I would sort of say, you know, politeness is behavioral has to do with how you behave. Niceness is about the person. And whereas politeness is sort of treating other people with respect, I guess, being polite and being being respectful. Being kind is means actually doing costly things for them, you know, giving them resources, essentially. So think about those. And they're all quite difficult to analyze. But luckily, in the five factor model of personality, which we've discussed in the past, there is this one trait called agreeableness, which I think packages a lot of this up together quite nicely. And it's been well measured. So there's quite a lot of evidence floating about. So agreeableness is about sort of your general concern for social harmony, the amount to which you care about people getting on with each other. And, you know, it's people who are who are high on agreeableness tend to be kind of considerate and kind and generous and trusting and, you know, helpful. They're good team players. They're willing to to compromise their own interests for other people. And they tend to be more optimistic. So horrible. Yeah, they're really annoying. No, but so the agreeable people, what happens to them? Well, there's actually quite a lot of connection between agreeableness and different sorts of life outcomes. So agreeableness tends to be correlated

Speaker A: 00:09:02

with these end up being the chimpanzees that never get to mate with anyone. Well, that's the this is

Speaker C: 00:09:07

the thing. Right. So chimpanzees always finish last. Yeah. They they do better at school. They are certainly in occupations which require interpersonal interaction are more successful. They they're less likely to be psychopaths or less likely to engage in risky sexual behavior and crime and less likely to be aggressive in children. Agreeable children tend to tend to have better, more harmonious interpersonal relationships and, you know, better schooly, more healthily, the less likely to be depressed or bully people or be like a middle of the road. So well, so I think, however, is negatively correlated with wealth. Right. So I'm going to put it this way. I'm going to put it this way. Been be agreeable if you want to be happy, be disagreeable if you want to be rich. That is, I think that's my summary of what this all means.

Speaker A: 00:10:14

So, yeah, I mean, what I think is interesting is that I can just I can see why, by the way, why we once thought a good analogy for you was Cersei Lannister. But anyway,

Speaker B: 00:10:25

sorry, Chris, I interrupted. No, I was just going to say, I think that what that shows is that or what I kind of was thinking of as we went through that is that there is this separation between politeness and agreeableness, which which it seems is sort of perhaps a good concept for for niceness, you know, that it is possible like the politeness is the is the superficial sheen. It doesn't mean that it doesn't mean that you're one of these agreeable people, though it's it's it's a mechanism for you being able to sort of say, well, look, I'm not going to be agreeable. I'm not going to be conformist and do the thing that you want, but neither am I going to punch you in the face. I'm going to do something which allows me to not be agreeable, but but to not cause confrontation. Yeah, it's like it's like a I don't know. It's like an interface between being a doormat and being a nightmare. It enables you to sort of

Speaker C: 00:11:38

move somewhere in the middle. Yeah, I mean, I think there's an interesting thing here again, you know, sort of signalling related. Yeah. About the about who what kinds of people are polite and when because I think there's an interesting feature about people who are rude, particularly people who are rude to, you know, sort of serve waiters, people, people. Yeah, that it's widely regarded as extremely naff, right. To be rude, to exert power over people who are pretty powerless to begin with. So, you know, to be rude to waiting stuff, to be inconsiderate of them is something that generally is looked down on by upper middle class people. It's seen as a really naff way of behaving. So what you I mean, it tends to be the case, I would say that people who are polite to wait waiters and, you know, others tend to be people who are in that who are likely to have done jobs like that or people who are, you know, very far removed from, you know, having worked as a waiter and that in the middle you have a kind of bunch of people who are very keen to signal that they're not they're not they're not the kind of people who have to work as a waiter, you know, they've got they've got enough money and to pay the bill and those kind of people. So it's which is why it's seen as a sort of nouveau riche thing to do to be rude to people. So it sort of baffles me why people do it. If you look at if you look at if you if you're on Reddit at all, practically every other day, right, a thread comes up where someone says, you know, on Ask Reddit, what are some red flags about people you've just met? And one of them always gets to the top, which is you people are rude to waiters. It's always and so but and yet, you know, some people still are saying, look, if you want to look like you're rich and successful, people like to waiters, right? Because that's, you know, a signal of power. You're not no one's saying you mean being polite to a waiter doesn't mean you're seeing them as a social equal, like Chris was saying, you know, you're not you're not saying, well, we're all buddies in this together. I mean, they're working for you. And it's a bit like, you know, really senior boss doesn't have to shout at people to get his way. He just has to ask. And he knows that people will do it. Yeah. So I don't think I think people confuse politeness with servility. And it's and it's not. Yeah. I've got some other evidence about niceness being bad.

Speaker A: 00:14:08

Okay, well, we'll come on to that. But I feel that we've drifted. I want to return to the example of the congressional study that you that you mentioned. I mean, what are your thoughts on

Speaker B: 00:14:17

that? What are your conclusions on that? Well, so so a lot of information there. Yeah, there is a lot of information there. And I think it seems to me that what they are concluding now, you know, the fact that they've conducted this study now anyway, suggests that they believe there's there's less civility than than there was, you know, they picked this moment to investigate this. But it seems to suggest that being rude doesn't influence people to to approve of you. So it begs a question. Why? Why are people rude? As Nick was saying in the in the way to you know, this is this is similar being being rude. You know, there have been studies that have shown that negative campaigning in political circles does reduce the approval rating of the person you're attacking. But it also reduces the approval rating of the person doing the attacking. So so it you know, affects the victim and the perpetrator, sort of in equal measure. So there's a there's a nil

Speaker C: 00:15:26

some some gain. That was my thought about when you were describing the study was I wondered if a consistent sort of story might be to say, well, you know, you have a sort of incentive not to be polite, or at least, you know, you kind of you're approved, you might get more approval by being rude among your base. And I don't know if that's quite supportive of what you're saying. But it sounds like it turns other people off. So it's like, okay, the Republicans who are still there might like Trump being rude, but there are going to be fewer of them, because there are people who are turning from being Republicans into being nothing, because they are turned off by the whole political,

Speaker B: 00:16:02

you know, decline in Yeah, well, yeah, funnily, funnily enough, in it, when they looked at this, this Trump issue, and Trump supporters, his rudeness didn't have any effect, but his civility did. So so if he were politer, they are suggesting that he would do better. But my one of my one of chief sort of interests in the study is why is he being rude in the first place, right? Trump, from my sort of observation of him becomes rude when he's under pressure, right? It's his strategy for dealing with a crisis. So it may well be the moments when he's ruder, and therefore, you know, not being civil and not bringing people on side are the moments at which he's most under political pressure, and he's done something wrong, right? So it might be actually that by being rude at that moment, he is an effective masking technique, it gets everybody focusing on the rudeness as opposed to the thing he's cocked up. And the fact that he's not, he's not alienating more people, which is which is what the study shows, is actually a benefit. Because if if under those circumstances, if if he were just being nice and polite, when things were going wrong, maybe people would be leaving him in in droves at that point. So Nick, back to you. And there's something you want to bring in? Yeah, I mean, I think there is a there's this study I found, which I thought was quite interesting,

Speaker C: 00:17:40

because we touched on this, you know, when I was describing agreeable people. Yeah, I think we all agreed they sounded like total arses. And what is it? So I think there's a question about what is it about people who are like, nice, so not polite, but nice. That is so annoying. Yeah, apparently, there was a study recently called, I think the I think the paper was called something like that's nice now get out, where they did, you know, another one of these sort of game theory experiments, where they got a bunch of people who could all contribute to a pot, they all got given different numbers of, you know, amounts of money, and they could sort of share, share that money, or keep it themselves or whatever, and to see what happened. And apparently, and then they could kick people out of the team. And and then they do it again. And people would get kicked out of the team if they didn't share any of their money, fair enough. But apparently, people who were overly share, who shared lots of their money, also got kicked out of the team, because they were seen as sort of violating group norms. And I that makes perfect sense to me. I mean, I feel like, you know, you know, like, now I'm, I always eat more than everyone else or drink, drink more than everyone else in a restaurant, I always end up and I want I really be more than happy to, you know, sit down and divide the bill according to how much we had. But at the same time, you know, I people who are obsessive about that, you know, if I'm not, if I don't happen to be that person, it's always just easy to say, let's split the bill. Someone who's like, oh, no, no, no, I had because I had that salad. Oh, and then I had a I had a coffee as well. So I really I need to put in another 10 pounds really drives me up the wall. So you know, I think I can see that I can see what this is about, you know, that we expect a certain amount from people as a society. And people who give more than that are kind of ruining it for the rest of us. They might be they might be increasing that expectation, you know, across the board. And I don't want I don't want to have to be in a sense that that is an impoliteness,

Speaker A: 00:19:41

isn't it? That sort of it is, it's a lack of what's the word I'm looking for? Well, it's a

Speaker B: 00:19:47

consideration. Yeah, it's a lack of consideration. And it's a lack of awareness of, you know, part of being civil is understanding what the rules of the game are, and not not smashing through them.

Speaker A: 00:20:01

Well, and actually, a definition of manners or politeness, it's quite simply making everyone making sure that everyone feels at ease as best you can run and as best they can. And that's an example, actually, of breaking that, of that, breaking that, that norm that I remember

Speaker C: 00:20:19

ing to have to go pretty near: 5050

Speaker A: 00:22:14

So look, let's round off. I want to round off with there's a couple of things we can do and bring it back down to ourselves. The first one, think of yourself. Do we want to divide into politeness and niceness or not? Yeah, I think it's a separate score for each. Okay, separate score for each. Give yourself a score. One out of 10. One, sorry, one to 10 of how nice you are and how polite you

Speaker C: 00:22:31

are. And also let's score each other. All right. Is zero kind of neutral or is five neutral?

Speaker A: 00:22:38

Five is neutral. So zero would be negatively nice. I mean, I don't know. Yeah. Have zero as being horrible. I mean, hopefully none of us will be zeros. Okay, so let's start off. Nick,

Speaker C: 00:22:56

what are your own scores for yourself in terms of? Well, if I'm rude to you, it's a compliment. Because I'm rude to people I consider my friends. Because you're rude to me quite often. I know. Yeah, it's a compliment. Thanks very much. Yeah, but I'm actually, I think I'm pretty damn polite to people I don't know. Yeah. So I'm going to say it depends. Depends on how well I know you. It's

Speaker A: 00:23:19

probably a three or an eight. Okay. Depending on whether I know you or not. Right. So watch out if Nick's saying please and thank you to you. Yeah, exactly. He's on his eight level behavior. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. And for niceness? Oh, a five. I don't consider myself nice, really. Okay. I mean, I think it's actually, I don't think we need to talk about it. I'm not a nasty man. Yeah. But I'm not a nice man. Yeah. And for yourself, Chris, what sort of numbers? Well,

Speaker B: 00:23:51

I would say politeness, I would give myself a nine. I think I'm quite polite. I think for niceness, I would give myself about a three or two, probably. Why? That's quite low. Why three or two? Well, I'm definitely not. And by the terms of sort of agreeableness or not, you know, especially out of sight. For me, politeness is the facade that is non-confrontational and you offer people things and there's no point in creating confrontation. Niceness is what you actually do out of sight, what you really like. And that bit, I'm quite, you know, quite happy to

Speaker C: 00:24:31

be self-serving. I don't agree. Because I think Chris does do things for other people, actually. Yeah. Yeah. He does without sort of really being asked necessarily. I think he's deluded about

Speaker B: 00:24:42

what a scumbag he is. Well, it depends what the purpose. I suppose niceness is about the

Speaker C: 00:24:47

reason behind that altruism. Yeah. I don't think he's not, he's certainly not motivated. I mean, I had him on a six, but I don't think he's not motivated by, you know, desire to improve the

Speaker A: 00:24:56

lot of humanity. I'll tell you someone who's, I think is quite nice, quite kind, is our friend

Speaker C: 00:25:01

Peter. Peter Coghill. Yeah. Yeah. I think he's a very kind chap. I'd put him high on the niceness list there.

Speaker A: 00:25:06

Yeah. For myself, I think in terms of politeness, yeah, I'd give myself an eight or nine, I think. Really? Yeah. What about self-awareness? What about nice? Niceness is a tricky one. I'd give myself just an edge on the sort of side of nicer. I think I'm about a six. Yeah. I actually

Speaker C: 00:25:24

had you the other way around from Chris. I think Chris is more polite, but you're nicer. Yeah, that's right. I would agree. That you're more polite and that I'm nicer. Yeah.

Speaker A: 00:25:34

Than each other. Yeah. I wouldn't say you're particularly polite. I think you're quite good at being kind of brusque. Well, actually, here's the thing. Maybe this leads us on to the second point is I think of myself as being polite, but actually I've got into so many arguments throughout my life with strangers. I don't think I am that. You have to conclude that you're not. Yeah, I have to conclude that I'm not. So which brings me on to, I mean, I try and be polite to people. I think I am, but I think I'm more sinned against than sinning. And so many times in my life, people have just been absurdly impolite to me. Right. And so just a couple, just off the top of my head, I just remember once trying to order in a restaurant in America, in Florida, and I didn't quite know what I wanted. And I was sort of bumbling a bit, a bit like I do in podcasts, actually going, oh, I'm not sure. And the waiter just looked at me and said, I have no idea what you're saying. And he just walked away from me. And then another time that sticks in my mind.

Speaker B: 00:26:25

Which is very un-American service, isn't it?

Speaker A: 00:26:28

Well, actually, I think it is and it isn't. I find, you know, service in America. Yes, it can be all this amazing, you know, hey, how are you kind of thing. But actually, it can be very brusque as well. Another time I remember it sticks out. I was a callow youth. And I was doing an internship at the UN in Geneva. And this, this middle aged, looks quite powerful technocrat of some kind, asked me, came and said, look, do you know where, you know, I'm trying to get to this meeting room and so on, things like that. And I started to say, oh, I think it's here. And I'm an intern. And as I was explaining to him, and just bumbling a bit, again, he just, without a word, just walked away from me. I was just left there going, well, that was a bit rude. So those are two times that I can think of. Guy, it's you.

Speaker B: 00:27:17

Well, for me, it was when I was in Finland. And I mean, the Finns are, by our set of criteria, very impolite people. I mean, they don't have a word for please, for example, or, you know, direct translation of please. But I was stood in this crowded sort of bar. And this, you know, a gentleman in his about his 60s or something was walking through. And he just sort of took hold of me by my shoulders and just moved me out the way, and then walked through the gap. And I was like, what just happened? But it makes total sense, really. I mean, you know, why sort of go, excuse me, can I just, you know, oh, and it's all noisy. And if that's the social norm, it wasn't like he pushed me out the way or caught, you know, he sort of just steered me out the way. And that was that. So I reflected on it. And I thought, you know, initially, I was incensed. And then I thought, maybe that makes sense as a system.

Speaker A: 00:28:19

It should be a thing. Yeah, I like that. I like that. Nick.

Speaker C: 00:28:23

It's just going to enrage me describing it. But about 10 years ago, when my son was about six months old, we went on holiday to Normandy. And we went to Pointe du Hoc, which is the scene of the daring raid by the US Rangers on the morning of D-Day, where they scaled a cliff. And you know, it's preserved as a battle site. And yeah, so it was quite interesting. And lo and behold, the car didn't start. Now, this place is quite a long way. It's got to be, you know, a good couple of miles to the nearest village. So the car didn't start. And would you believe both our bloody phones are out of battery. So I just thought, well, no problem. We'll go to the visitor center. And I'll ask if I can use the phone from the lady there, uh, just to phone the AA, you know, two minute call, get the AA out sorted. Cause they have an international service. Um, so I explained the situation holding, you know, infant baby in, uh, in my arms. And she just said, no. And there was a phone right there, right in front of her. No. So I said, well, yeah. Okay. Well, where's, is there a phone we can use? Is there a public phone or something? And she said, uh, you'd have to go to the next village about three or four kilometers away. I just could, I was dumbfounded. I couldn't believe that a person could be like that. You know, my reaction would be, oh yeah, don't worry. Give us a number. I'll phone him, phone him myself. So I took matters into my own hand, plugged, plugged my recharger into a plug that happened to be on the wall. And just before she tried to boot us out of what was a public space for use it for daring to use their electricity. Uh, I managed to get the call through and then a Frenchman turned up about an hour later with a hammer and fixed our car. Um, and, uh, I, I was, uh, but I still just, whenever I think of it, it's just, I cannot believe anyone could be that awful. Did you, did you wish you

Speaker B: 00:30:02

could, uh, reverse 70 years back in time and, and, and get the, get the U S Marines to not

Speaker C: 00:30:08

liberate Vichy France. I mean, she was one of those people. You just, I would never get bored

Speaker A: 00:30:12

of punching her. Two things. I just like the fact that your, the stories from both of you involved foreigners. Um, and, and more, and more importantly that one of them involved the French, um, it had to be the French just only a couple of weeks ago. I was probably had about the biggest argument I've had in the last decade, which was at Eurostar in on the French side, of course, with this intractable, um, uh, French woman who just would not let me get, I was, and I was stranded there for about two hours or so. So yeah, I'm with you on these blood. So it's yeah. So yeah. New headline, newsflash. Um, the French are rude. There we go. Um, all right. Um, thank you as always for listening to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast. I'm Fraser McGruer. We've been here with Chris Wragg and Nick Hare of Aleph Insights and until next time, goodbye.