Remember your passport: Why are things hard to remember?
Nick, Peter and Fraser discuss why it is hard to remember some important things, but easy to remember others.
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Transcript
Hello and welcome to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast produced by Tell Me Studios for Aleph Insights. In this series of podcasts we take a look at interesting topics and discuss what we think they tell us about analysis and decision making. I'm Fraser McGruer and I'm here with Nick Hare and Peter Coghill of Aleph Insights and this week we're discussing the fact that Nick recently forgot to renew his passport. So Nick, why did you forget to renew your passport?
Speaker B: e I'd been abroad I think was: Speaker A:Yes and that's the question I want to discuss but before we do have you actually taken your own tip there? Have you put a reminder in your calendar for 10 years from now? I certainly have. Have you? Yeah I certainly have. Good because this is what I was going to suggest to you so I'm pleased that you've done it. Do you remember you were there a minute ago when I suggested it? No. Obviously I did it for myself. No I was independently thinking okay what could I do about this and actually my passport expires next year in November. Yeah well the thing is I know exactly when my passport is going to expire. It's in October or November next year so why is it that I know that and you don't know that about your own passport and you've kind of talked about that a little bit but... Yeah well if someone had asked me when does your passport
Speaker B:expire I might well have remembered but no one did. No one asked me. So I can help you with
Speaker A:your system that you've built there is I can put a monthly reminder to me to send you an email asking you whether you've renewed your passport okay. I think this is getting unnecessarily complicated. Right anyway so you said so and I said yes that is the question I want to discuss. What was the question again? Why are some things easier to remember? You've forgotten. Why are some things easier to remember than others? Is that right? Is that the question?
Speaker C:Yeah. So who wants to take that up? Do you want to go with that Peter? Yeah sure so I mean I'm not a neurologist or cognitive psychologist but from what I understand the way that human memory works it's pretty noisy or incomplete and a lot of the what you when you remember something you are essentially re-perceiving it. You're reusing the same circuitry that you first used to perceive something to read to remember it so it's like you're experiencing it again. So it's not like computer memory which just just takes a copy of a number and then you can recall that exact same number. It's like the computer's having to recalculate that number every time it's remembering it. But your memory is also very associative so you tend to remember things as clusters or as processes so you remember that kettles boil water and that's hot and hot hurts so you don't remember initially that there's a the pain of burning yourself and kettle. You remember this process of how you got burnt by hot water one time. So this lends itself very well to the sort of as a species developed in without the need for long-term planning and when you're dealing with small groups of people for completing tasks. So it's easy to remember if something's really important to you you can probably if you remind yourself to remind yourself tomorrow like we've got to do this thing tomorrow it's really important you're probably going to remember that or next week I need sometime next week I need to do this thing and you probably you'll probably dig that out of your memory because you see a sort of associative narrative between now and and then. But if you if we were trying to plan a complex task with 10 or 20 people six months from now without without information aids like paper and pen and computers it'd be really really complicated and hugely cognitively demanding because we're just not built for that kind of that kind of task and so we're built for real physical things remembering real physical things in short time frames that aren't too complicated. The fact that we're able to contemplate and understand and discuss abstract concepts is a recent development and I think that so I think there's a probably a correlation between the ease of remembering stuff and how abstract it is. So the more abstract it is the harder it'll be to remember and I think there's probably not much more abstract than than interstate bureaucracy and passports and things and especially if it's further in the future becomes more abstract like passports are 10 years from now oh that's ages I don't need
Speaker B:to think about that yet. Yeah and there's no physical process by which a passport expires it doesn't make a bang or something you know there's nothing that happens. It doesn't smell. No exactly whereas you know that that obviously does work for a lot of physical things. Maybe
Speaker C:they should do that maybe you should engineer in some yogurt or something into the cover so it starts going really smelly as it gets too old. Yeah well you you took my thunder there because
Speaker A:that's what you stole my thunder because I was I thought this is a good way to wrap this up is that if you change color it could go green to red. Yeah I will. Why couldn't they? Could they do that? That sounds like a really good idea. That would work wouldn't it I think your passport goes they do that with all what's the thing you can get like batteries and all sorts of stuff where it will change color but I think something even more visceral would work where it was you know if it was if it started to smell that would be really good although it'd get quite embarrassing then where your passport's nine years old and it's starting to get a bit you know. Yeah wiffy. Yeah anyway okay so that's why Nick forgot his passport because he he only needs to think about it once every 10 years and our brains and Nick's included in that can't sort of really compute this stuff well they don't need to so okay have we is that it we've answered the question it's not that
Speaker C:we don't need to because we obviously do but we've developed we mostly don't need we mostly don't need to and we we evolved in a world we mostly didn't need to so we haven't developed the machinery for dealing with this sort of thing had we done have we had we sort of evolved into a world which was highly highly predictable and there were lots of predictable processes and things maybe would have developed more silicon computer like interrupt system where we could set a reminder that would trigger something and tell us to do something at an exact same exact point in time
Speaker B:but we we don't have that. But we have developed lots of I mean my guess would be the earliest information systems were designed to assist our memory. I wonder if things like cave paintings might be a way of recording stories and things that are important. Yeah exactly so yes exactly so we
Speaker C:would be as a species took an interest in the heavens because it provided us with a ready-made calendar come clock for us to be able to predict when seasons were changing things. That was a like the part of the physical universe providing us with this regular clock that we can't we don't have in our in our own heads. So the use of stellar calendars and things highly crucial to planning state level planning or even just sort of village level planning for harvests and preparation for winter and things like that. I mean I don't know about
Speaker B:you guys but my life is full of memory aids every I mean if it's I don't I probably don't make much use of post-its anymore you know but I used to I used to have a computer that was covered in post-it notes reminding me things and you know I use my calendar for everything even even if I've got a you know if I'm having a bath I'll stick it in my calendar so that I don't forget. I have three monthly reminders to get a haircut and you might think well don't you just notice that your hair is long and I sort of do but not frequently enough to actually think I'll book a book a hair appointment you know but so I think that you know these these things really are problems we probably don't
Speaker C:really need to worry about anymore. Yeah so I'm in a similar way I have so the past thing I have a a definite process that when I book a travel I've developed a sort of procedure that I will always check my passport for this future travel. I've also now got a calendar reminder that tells me a few months ahead that change that change to check the passport. Hold on though isn't there
Speaker A:kind of an opportunity loss there or there's a there's a cost to you which is that for nine years that you're constantly checking whether your passport is out of date or not every time you book at some travel. I think you're going too far Peter. Yeah indeed but this is this is an
Speaker C:extension to a more a practiced way of life where the physical world I have I don't remember the fact but I remember where I can find the fact so the passport is in itself the memory aid of when it expires because it has that as a date in it. Likewise you know I don't plan a weekly shopping trip I use the fridge to judge how much food I've got left in my house to then decide whether or not I need to go shopping so I use the world provides me with these memory aids so whereas you know some people would write a shopping list I use the what I previously bought to scan the barcodes and use that as what my shopping list. But whereas I have a packing
Speaker B:checklist so on the same day that my passport expired I was using my packing checklist which is an excel spreadsheet I wrote where you you tell it how many days you're away whether I need you whether you need hot clothing or cold clothing and whether or not you're going on a work trip and it tells me what to pack and that is a massive reduction of cognitive load. It's not even so much that I used to leave things behind but it used to take me several weeks to pack because I'd be thinking oh I mustn't forget that um that recharger I'll put it in my bag now uh you know whereas now I can just whiz through the house in about an hour and get it all done. You know I've
Speaker C:done the same thing for often go away mountain bike trips and when you're mountain biking there's a huge amount of sort of extra paraphernalia you need which is often spread around the house in different places and it's so useful having a packing framework of uh what item by item what you need to put in
Speaker A:the bag for a given type of trip. Okay I'm starting to get a greater insight into you guys and why you do what you do. I don't do any of these things um but um look I mean that what you described there is a list yeah? A list yeah. Okay but what you described is different. You said your excel spreadsheet that where it knows how many days you're away whether it's a business trip and so on is that right? Yeah it's still just a list I mean I don't want to glorify it's just a
Speaker B:list that that that has different things on it uh depending on whether I need a jumper or not you know it's not but it but you know the thing is that that I you know you relying on association which is what um uh what my partner does she she just seems to be able to know everything that needs to be packed likewise when she goes to the shop she she buys everything we need and I you know it's like her associative memory system works she just sort of thinks well if I'm packing shoes I should pack some socks as well or something I'm guessing you've yet to figure out but I I just I just yeah I mean for me it's you know I'm perfectly capable of going on holiday and discovering I've only got one pair of trousers you know uh it's this is what but I don't care because that's what
Speaker A:technology is there for right so no look I must admit in there isn't a part of me which is always more like more like you two a part of me um because I don't particularly make lists and so on but I am good at packing let's say but I've developed it's completely worth the skill it's like being
Speaker B:it's like it's like taxi drivers doing the knowledge or or you know people who can remember uh the dates of all the kings and stuff it's it's you know fine it's really impressive but it's totally unnecessary in this day and age except for the fact I've yet to forget to renew
Speaker A:my passport but yeah yeah so hang Ted in shame okay yeah okay so where are we where does this go um we said you know I think we understand some things are easier to remember for other than others and we know why I think we all kind of get it um and fortunately in the age in which we live there's all sorts of reminders we can use to sort of I like the word the the phrase you use to sort of reduce our cognitive um load I think that's what you said something like that I think it looks
Speaker B:like the direction things are going in is more and more active um reminders so so you know things like this uh the thing that you stick on your fridge now which does what Peter does with his brain but you know works out when you're running out of milk and orders more for you yeah this is the internet of things right yeah right so I mean um you know that's really about externalizing these things and and the rules that we normally have to apply to try and remember things will
Speaker A:be less and less important okay but let's flip this around then isn't this all rather depressing because it just means that ultimately these things are not that important right I mean yes it's nice to to know to not have to worry about whether you've got to buy milk or not and in theory that frees up your mind to think about all sorts of wonderful creative things but one of the criticisms of of Silicon Valley and all the very creative app developers um in the U.S. is if this is this is not splitting the atom the the and there's a lot of time and energy being devoted into developing apps that are just this app is for making sure your coffee is the optimal temperature um and these are sort of real sort of west problems of the west isn't it isn't that
Speaker C:where we are well I don't know I think it's a little unfair to um to roll all these innovations of all different types together yes perhaps the the app that optimizes when to drink your coffee is a bit banal but you know just because we automate something doesn't mean it's necessarily unimportant uh somebody might really like coffee to be the exact right temperature but we automate loads of other things which are very important um so as we automate more and more public services you know eventually we'll have automated bin collection bin collection is really important
Speaker B:a lot of automated appointments to the doctor when you're you know when you when your your
Speaker C:blood pressure is we'll have we'll have we we already have sort of um semi-assisted augmented surgery there was a last week there was a an eye surgery that couldn't have been performed by a human hand it had a robot that was controlled by the human that that augmented his ability to finally control the instrument so we were sort of automating things which are really really
Speaker B:important maybe what we might you can imagine a world where you know the the uh it looks likely that there'll be a you know an armed conflict so emergency um you know emergency negotiations are automatically scheduled to try and head it off you know it's not all about
Speaker A:i like it again temperature coffee right fair enough fair enough but returning to the mundane as you know i recently uh just last night i returned from holland and i love it every time i go to holland which is not that often where they've always got some really cool gadget um and the first time i went there a few years ago was i ordered a coffee and whatever in a in a cafe and they handed me this disc with lights on it and i had to say what was this and she said well you've got a red light there when your coffee's ready it'll start flashing so it's a pager in other words i don't know was it i mean is that is that how is that the same time do you mean you you
Speaker B:do your did your coffee sit on it and measure the temperature or was it just something where
Speaker A:you got summoned to the no i think it's because there's so many people in the restaurant or cafe and to sort of you know say is my coffee ready you know i think this fabulous new gadget
Speaker C:electronic queuing system but it's a pager but i think it's it's i mean it's well they've been around a while well hold on it's a good thing why don't we have it here why have the dutch got it and i've seen them in some restaurants here so i've never i remember getting those things when
Speaker B:i used to go and play um uh you know poker or pool you get a your thing would flash when a when a
Speaker A:table was ready so you're shooting down my sort of nice little anecdote about holland okay another one then which is having been in holland just now is is automated taxi calling so i was in this i was having a drink in this bar and i wanted sort of a taxi and they and i said where can i get a good taxi where can i walk to a rank and they said oh just ask inside okay that's fine i walked inside he just pressed a button on the wall and he said they'll be a taxi in four minutes so they've invented mini cabs sounds amazing yeah but they have that technology here no but but it was just a question of pressing some buttons he didn't have to call anyone yeah yeah it was a bit like that as well i think god you're a tough you can start talking about ways again
Speaker C:it's really good you should get it what is he doing uh what are you smoking in amsterdam you're making really enthusiastic about fairly mundane things they also have this you know
Speaker B:amazing device where you could you could lift up a kind of handle and talk to someone who was a long way away another one where you could see pictures of things happening that weren't
Speaker A:nearby it's like a painting but it moved sure but you know the best thing about the trip you're gonna like this the best thing about the whole thing's going to holland was i i i didn't forget to renew my passport for god's sake um so drawing on your painful recent experiences nick what would be your message to uh our audience i think you've kind of already said it but no i
Speaker B:think as a general rule uh if you remember it now put a reminder in to do it you know if you've remembered it now don't assume you'll remember it in future whatever it is yeah don't don't
Speaker C:give future self future you any breaks because that guy's useless he's useless he'll forget
Speaker A:stuff load his calendar up and get it keep him busy i like that so there's some sage words of wisdom there from aleph insights um okay thank you very much guys um you've been listening to the cognitive engineering podcast with nick hair and peter coghill of aleph insights uh thank you very much for listening and until next time bye
