Pride and Joy

Speaker A: 00:00:00

Hello and welcome to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast produced by me, Fraser McGruer for Aleph Insights. In this series of podcasts, we take a look at interesting topics and discuss what we think they tell us about analysis and decision making. I'm here with Anna Pearson, Peter Coghill, and Nick Hare of Aleph Insights. And this week, we're discussing whether Britain really is the best country in the world. And this week, because of the new lockdown, unusually, we're recording this remotely. Nick, best country in the world, Great Britain, right? This is called great for a reason. I've got two data points.

Speaker B: 00:00:37

First one is from this from last month, where our Consul General to Chongqing in China, Stephen Ellison, was walking by a river in a village near where he works. And a woman, 24 year old woman slipped on rocks into the water and he alone among the crowd, dived in and rescued her. There's one data point. The other data point is the fact that we were, I don't want to say the first because I don't think it's totally true. But the first kind of roll out a proven COVID vaccine. And in support of my claim, I want to cite Aleph Insights' favorite politician, Gavin Williamson. We've mentioned him on several podcasts. Not, it has to be said, always in an entirely positive light. He's currently described as an education secretary. And he said, I just reckon we've got the very best people in this country. And we've obviously got the best medical regulator. Much better than the French have. Much better than the Belgians have. Much better than the Americans have. That doesn't surprise me at all. Because we're a much better country than every single one of them. So I think that settles it, doesn't it? Yeah. End of podcast. The interesting thing, from my point of view, is that I couldn't, actually more so, I think, I mean, the COVID vaccine really is an international effort. But for some reason, I felt more pride in Stephen Ellison, the Consul General, rescuing someone than I did in the COVID vaccine. But even then, I did find myself thinking, I have had nothing whatsoever to do with either of these things, right? What on earth right have I got to feel anything resembling pride? And in general, this idea of people feeling proud for things that their country does, or their football team or their company. What's that all about? It's strange when you think about it. What right have we got to feel it? Is it a positive thing, feeling pride in a group that you consider yourself part of? Or is it, in fact, something negative we should be trying to eliminate? Yeah.

Speaker A: 00:02:53

It's as you say, why feel pride in someone else's achievements? And I guess it's to do with you, you know, the person who's feeling that is some kind of shared, still some sense of commonality with that and shared values or shared something. But it's, I sometimes notice when I'm speaking, I'm not really a big football person. But when I'm speaking to people, friends who are talking about their football teams, and they talk about, yeah, we did this, and we beat them. And I always think that's a bit odd, because you just sat on a sofa. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I guess one of the so I guess what we're talking about here, well, you did sum it up, I'm probably repeating, but it's sort of perception of achievements and sort of shared achievements. Is there such a thing or shared pride or why? Yeah, I don't know. I think, Anna, let's go to you.

Speaker C: 00:03:37

Sure. I think, from the examples that Nick gave, I think it can be sometimes intuitive, right? If the gentleman that's the gentleman that's saved the daughter, and, you know, potentially risked his own life in doing that. I think a lot of people probably wouldn't, or couldn't do it, do the same thing. They might be too afraid to challenge themselves or to, you know, don't have the talent to achieve something. And so that's sort of on the personal level. But I think perceptions of achievements in the past have been sort of shaped by society. And these can change over time. So Sun Tzu, who wrote The Art of War, looked at achievements as a collective, as opposed to how the self defines achievements. And that's through the perspective of a leadership and through a general. So, yes, I think that's, yeah, that's my perception of achievements.

Speaker A: 00:04:41

That seems to argue sort of for a sort of a shared sense of pride, right? I do want to come to Peter, but I actually want to go to Nick first, because I don't know if you've thought about

Speaker B: 00:04:55

what is pride? Yeah, yeah. So the, I think we can drill out from there. So if we start with what does it mean to be proud of yourself first? It's a sort of part of a family of emotions that are self oriented. Not all emotions are self oriented, you can just feel happy, you know, or scared without necessarily evaluating something to do with yourself. But pride is about some evaluation you've made of your own actions. And your own achievements. You've, you've looked at what you've done. And you've patted yourself on the back and said, well done you. That was a cool thing to have achieved. And pride obviously has physiological is associated with certain sort of physiological and behavioral features like I mean, some people who if you think imagine, imagine what a proud person looks like that their chin is out, their arms are relaxed. Their chest is out. Those are things associated with with pride. And they're all also associated with sort of displays of status. So you know, you're there kind of displays of in a sense vulnerability, you're showing that you know, you're exposing yourself by saying, I'm, I'm a high status person, I've got nothing to fear from people. So physical expressions of pride are very similar have an overlap with physical expressions of high status, which might give you an insight into what pride is about. It's about, you know, having a sense that through your own actions, you have, you know, you've, you've glorified yourself in some sense, and gain status as a result. So moving out from there, apply that to a group. I mean, let's say a group endeavor, which is most obvious thing, like you're on a football team. And through the your work and the work of your colleagues, you win. You're part of a group of people who've worked towards a great medical breakthrough, and you accomplish it. I think that's a very straightforward extension, isn't it? That you feel that you have actually helped contribute towards this outcome. Again, pat yourself and your group on the back. Well done. The puzzle, the thing that I think we're trying to work out is where how this how this emotion arises, when you yourself have had demonstrably nothing whatsoever to do with it, like my contribution to the COVID vaccine. Yeah. Which I mean, non existent negative, if anything, yeah, drain resources from the national coffers.

Speaker A: 00:07:24

But isn't isn't this simple? Because isn't a question of you talked about status, everyone wants status, right? That's the first thing. But secondly, is it is a thing about gradations, right? So the you know, if you're the scientist who's at the heart of discovering this vaccine, formulating, etc, you I'm sure you feel very, very proud of the team that's with you equally. And then you're as we sort of go out in concentric circles until suddenly, we're just happen to live in the same country. But we still grasp onto that because we want a bit of status. It mean, isn't isn't it as simple as that? Peter? I don't think it's quite as simple as that. I

Speaker D: 00:08:02

think I think it's sort of it is not not a sort of conscious wanting status. I think it's I wonder I mean, I wonder to what degree you'd feel pride if you found those bunch of scientists and in a different country and they discovered the vaccine and everything else. I think you still feel you still feel proud. There'd be you'd be pride in the human race, but it wouldn't be any less than it kind of is for these British scientists that that did the work. I the the it's sort of I think it's I think it's more the clan that you're feeling proud, proud, proud, proud for is that you're associating yourself with, certainly in Nick's case with the sort of scientific community he thinks he sort of feels like he's part of that and it's part of his club. But I just just back it up a bit. I think the I think there's a very neat and intuitive kind of explanation for pride generally, the sort of hierarchy of pride from individual pride all the way through to very distant proxy pride in evolution and social evolution. I think that the pride in oneself is a is a partly seemingly thing, as Nick has sort of mentioned, but it it is a driver. So wanting to achieve things gives you that status amongst your peers, gives you that status amongst your group. And it motivates you to do other things, to do new things. So feeling proud about yourself, having done something risky or dangerous or difficult, makes you want to do more of those things. So you personally benefit and your your family and your group will benefit. Pride towards people within your immediate group, I think has to do with social cohesion. So that's sort of if you if somebody's done something good in your group, then you'll it's a that's a good sign that they're an effective, productive member of your group. So having a reason, having a driver in an internal driver to make you want to sort of go and groom them and be friends with them will ultimately be good for you because they're likely to do good things again. And I think it's really just an extension of that. I think it's it's that you you that you feel a sense of compulsion to to wards people that you maybe never met, partly because, you know, your higher brain knows that you've never met them, but your reptilian brain doesn't towards people who are who are having a sort of in even an indirect benefit towards you. OK. Well, I mean, I think Peter's put a quite

Speaker B: 00:10:29

a positive spin on pride there. It's worth saying before we even get onto some of the negative expressions of group pride, that the idea of pride being good is certainly not a kind of an uncontroversial claim. I mean, go back to Aristotle. He thought pride was fine. As long as it was kind of deserved, you know, it's almost like a reward for being virtuous. I think he described it as the the crown of the virtues in the sense that, you know, if you had lived or if you were living a virtuous life, then then obviously you should feel proud because it's not easy to do that. So well done. It's like a kind of achievement that you get for having ticked all the other boxes. It's like 100 percent achievement reward. But of course, Christians famously have a massive downer on pride where where pride cometh, then cometh shame. But with the lowly is wisdom. And Christians are all about humility. And, you know, that actually the opposite of pride, you should feel, you know, that no no human should feel worthy at all. We're all unworthy. We're all sinners. So it's controversial, the idea that pride is good. I mean, for the way that Peter's described it, it's a sort of, you know, reward of being a nice

Speaker D: 00:11:50

thing. I mean, I think the way the way the evolutionary explanation is pride is neither good nor bad. Evolution is morally relative. I mean, it could be you could have if you were a member of Al-Qaeda, you'd be quite proud that the terrorists pulled off the bombing of London or the terrorist attack on 9-11. You'd feel very proud about that. But it's to do with your sort of goals and your your ideology. Pride itself is not morally good or bad.

Speaker B: 00:12:22

Well, but the way that you've described it, I'd say it's even it is definitely better than not feeling pride in the sense that let's take the world after the 9-11 attacks. You know, if Al-Qaeda members are feeling proud as a result, then that's just, you know, it's like a free benefit. That pride isn't being taken from someone else, if you see what I mean. Like if group pride is just a thing you feel when your group is doing well and you think, oh, yeah, that's good. That's nice. It's like a completely free windfall benefit in terms of nice feeling. So which makes it harder to see if that's the case, you know, makes it harder to see why people would have a downer on it.

Speaker A: 00:13:05

Okay, so look, I'm not sure if we've, you know, covered anything particularly groundbreaking here. All we've kind of said is that there are social reasons why we might desire pride. I think we've talked about the mechanisms of why we might feel pride in others' achievements. We've talked about the ethical side of it potentially and why we might feel it. I just don't feel we've got to the heart of anything here.

Speaker D: 00:13:29

Well, we could perhaps do what we hardly ever do on the Cognitive Engineering podcast and link it back to what we say we always talk about, which is Alice's decision making. So, I mean, pride is often linked to hubris. And that's kind of the major beef that Christianity has with pride is that pride sort of leads to you sort of caring more about yourself than God really at the end of the day. But actually, what it really boils down to is you thinking that you're above your station and you might challenge your local baron. That's really what Christianity is worried about. So I think that directly translates to analysis. So pride, I think as an analyst. Sorry, I think you're wrong about the Christianity thing. But anyway, keep going. Sorry. So being a good analyst, achieving something in analysis, coming to a conclusion that comes, you know, making a prediction that ends up being true, right? I think you have good reason, biological and sociological to be proud of yourself that that has happened. However, as an analyst, you should always be wary of hubris. Because as we know that, you know, you may predict that something be 95% likely to happen. There's always that 5% chance that it won't. So, you know, as an analyst, you need to be aware, you know, you don't need to need not put yourself too high on a pedestal. If your if your, your conclusion comes out true. Don't let it don't let it don't don't let it affect your priors too much about how much you should

Speaker B: 00:15:07

believe yourself. Yeah, I think this is the. Yeah, that I think we're perhaps edging into some of the harmful side effects of pride here, one of which is, or one aspect of it is the self serving bias, which is obviously very prevalent and where you mistake luck for your own achievement. You know, that people very common for people to think that the good things that happened to them as a virtue or skill, and the bad things are just bad luck. I mean, that's so so utterly prevalent in the way that people think about themselves. I think it is worth drawing a distinction. Peter mentioned hubris, but I think one of the other connected vices, if you like, is vanity. And there is, I think there is a connection here, which is that, you know, going back to sort of Aristotle's idea of, of, of the, of pride being a kind of crown, a sort of achievement you get when you've ticked all the other boxes. And it's a nice feeling. And we like it. Now. I think the point though, is that you mustn't pursue it like you're not allowed to pursue it in itself. And I think that's, that's where vanity comes in sort of vanity is, if you like, is the kind of pursuit of the rewards of achievement, the pursuit of the appearance of achievement, and the feeling of pride without having done the things that you ought to do to get there. So it's almost like trying to shortcut, I think vanity is trying to shortcut the pride system and get the pride without putting in the legwork first, which which and you can see why people would have would would want to socially police against that kind of behaviour, because it's that that is about getting undeserved rewards, you know, but just by wearing nice shoes, but you don't deserve those, those shoes, you know, you haven't, you haven't, you haven't done the input in the, put in the legwork to earn those shoes. Yeah, kind of thing. I think that's the idea.

Speaker A: 00:17:10

Anna, anything to add?

Speaker C: 00:17:11

I was about to say that's a nice summary of a fable from the fables of Aesop, the main glowworm that shines brightly at night, and is flattered and admired for it, but it just, it decides to glow in the day, but no one actually notices him because it's, you know, he could, he can't shine so brightly in the day. So and the moral of that is, you know, you can't move up into a different sort of, I don't know, level of society or admiration, if you're not prepared for it, and if you haven't earned it, and that's something that you touched on there.

Speaker B: 00:17:48

I feel a bit sorry for the glowworm, because I feel like there's probably not much, even if, even if they tried really hard to glow brightly during the day, they just wouldn't. It's almost, the story, it has a dark side, which is that it could be about genetic determinism. You know, it's simply, yeah, you're simply, I'm afraid, due to your birth, you'll never be able to achieve, you know, the same as.

Speaker D: 00:18:11

Yeah, remain in your, yeah, you're only a glowworm, don't have any ideas.

Speaker B: 00:18:16

Yeah, it's, you're good as a glowworm, but you're a very bad, you know, monkey.

Speaker A: 00:18:20

Well, I was going to say, I was surprised with that, because I thought Nick, as an economist, you were going to say was a waste of resources or capacity or something, you know, outputting during the day. I thought, Peter, you were going to sort of talk about the engineering faults within that, and design some sort of blockchain solution to this or something. I've got a question later, but I've just got one other question. I don't know if it's a silly one, but just thinking about, I wonder, if we think about what the opposite of pride might be, it might be shame, for example. And I was just curious if we can treat it in exactly the opposite way. Because, you know, we like to sort of feel shared pride, we've talked about that. But do we ever want shared shame? I don't think we, I think there's something we try and avoid. And also, it's, you know, as much as we want to sort of cling on to any sort of, you know, we lust after pride, we don't lust after shame. Or do we? I don't know. It's an interesting question or not. I don't know. Do we want to talk about shame, shared shame? Because sorry, actually, just thinking about actually going right back to the beginning, thinking about Gavin Williamson, and your best country in the world. Talking of shame. Yeah, I mean, yeah. And, you know, we talk, you know, if we look at Britain, it's colonial history. But, you know, there's lots, we don't really, really like to talk about that or to think about that

Speaker B: 00:19:37

too much. Well, we do, though, all the time, don't we? I mean, there's endless documentaries about the horrors of the, you know, the things that Britain did. And the, you know, plenty of modern day Americans are keen to talk about all the kind of evils of America's history and how it's founded on slavery and sin and all of that kind of thing. I think, so I think the idea of group shame is certainly not incoherent. It's very much a live thing today. So, but I think you're right. I mean, because earlier I said that humility was the opposite of pride. And actually, I think humility is almost saying, you know, that you don't deserve to feel pride, where shame is almost saying that you actually feel the opposite. You know, you should feel bad for bad things that you or your group has accomplished. I think, I think, I feel like it's very much the same thing, like, like, should you feel group shame is probably a similar thing about whether you, whether you should feel group, group pride. I mean, I suspect, but I suspect there's probably very different people. There's probably people who would feel proud to be, you know, proud to be Americans, for example, but who wouldn't accept that they also should feel ashamed of things the US has done. For example, you probably find that kind of phenomenon all over again. I think, I think you're looking at a kind of expression of the self-serving bias in some ways. But we haven't touched on, sorry, just to group the idea of group. Let's round it off with this, because then I've got a question. Yeah. I mean, I just, I think the problem group pride has such a dark side. That's the problem. I mean, don't forget in the 19th century, you know, when nationalism first appeared, it was a sort of seen as a fairly progressive force. It was a kind of anti-imperialist thing. It was progressive thinkers who said things like, oh, you know what, the Poles should have their own homeland. And the, you know, the, you know, we should start thinking about letting the sort of people who live in colonies have their own countries and those kinds of things. I mean, that was a progressive way of thinking. But that's, I mean, ethno-nationalism has obviously created some of the biggest genocides and horrors at the same time. So I think, you know, I'm not sure. I mean, I think we should always be really on our guard against group pride, whether that expresses itself in the conflicts between teams of football supporters or between countries or empires. You know, it's really, it's led to some of the worst outcomes ever. So it's got some black marks against it, group pride. So we do need to be on our guard against it. And I think asking yourself, you know, do I really deserve to feel this is a key part of that evocation process. A philosophical question that's been rolling

Speaker D: 00:22:20

around in my head for the last, I don't know, 15 years or so. I've never really got very far with it. The answer is 42, by the way. But anyway, go ahead. Is it possible to be patriotic without being nationalistic? And the only sort of years of, well, probably hours of deliberation across many years on this question has led me to think that, well, actually you can't. You can't, it doesn't make sense to be national, to be patriotic without being nationalistic. And if you are proud in your country without being kind of preferential towards your country, you you're just a humanist, you know, you're just proud in the human race. The world is my country and all men are my brothers. Yeah. I don't know if Nick's got any thoughts on that particular question, but it feels sort of contradictory to me to say I'm patriotic. I'm proud to be British without saying basically Britain is better than every other country. Well, that's, I think I'd

Speaker B: 00:23:24

say that's the key, right? Is the fact that, you know, you can be good without necessarily caring about whether you're better than other people, you know, you can live to a high moral standard and, and that, that can be true whether or not you're better or worse, you know, than other people. And I feel like that there's, and this is connotative sort of feeling, but that, that patriotism is about saying my country is good and nationalism is about saying my country is better and deserves better. And we ought to go out and try and achieve things as a country, like invading those scumbags on the other side of the border, you know, but, but I, so I just want to put in one, one defence after having talked about the fact that it inevitably leads to genocide. And I want to tell you that it's actually very possibly, I mean, okay, here's a question. Are some cultures, i.e. some cultures of groups better than other cultures? Just put that question. Is it, what do you, anyone, anyone think that could be true?

Speaker A: 00:24:22

I think intuitively I would say yes.

Speaker B: 00:24:27

Are they, are Buddhists better than Nazis? I can see where this is going. You're leading me down a path here, yes. What I am saying, is it better to have a culture where people queue up for things or a culture where people push and shove until they get to the front? Cueing's better, right? I think it ultimately boils down to like, what are you measuring? What is better? All right. Let's say more conducive to human happiness, to pick one fairly fundamental sort of measure in some sense. Now, I don't think it's unreasonable to say some cultures are better than others at promoting that. So, you know, and if you're part of one of those cultures, which is objectively better at producing human happiness, have you got the right to, you know, to feel good about that and to say, well, you know, there's a culture over there where people are immiserated and, you know, spend their lives in fear. Isn't that worse? Isn't our culture better? Now, I'm not saying that that's true of any particular culture, but I'm just

Speaker A: 00:25:26

saying, you know, it's not impossible that that's true. It was interesting. That sounds about right to me, but potentially massively controversial, what you've just said. But actually, if you listen to it, you know, it doesn't sound that at all. Right before you, no, you're right, maybe Buddhists are no better than Nazis. They're just as good, just as bad as each other. Right. I've got a question I want to ask. I was going to, I mean, just before I do, Anna,

Speaker C: 00:25:52

anything to add? Yeah, I mean, I really enjoyed the discussion you mentioned about pride and shame. Yeah, shame. That's it. Because obviously, there's two sides to the coin, right? You can admire someone's achievements, but actually, behind that, that person's still quite flawed, or that group is still flawed. Or there are aspects of it that you don't actually see or aren't really perceived. So, Ellen DeGeneres, she is a very famous host and actress. And she is always seen in the light of very, I don't know, caring, giving, virtuous. But behind closed doors, and what this massive backlash has led to, and her bad publicity in the press is that she

Speaker A: 00:26:41

is actually not. Remind us what it was all about, what the bad press was about. What was she up to?

Speaker C: 00:26:45

Yeah, so there was, I think, a whistleblower, an employee of hers had told some journalists that the working environment in her studio wasn't very good, and that she wasn't very respectful of people. And it was the complete opposite, the polar opposite of what how she perceives herself on television. And I think that's interesting, because even if we're looking at admiring people, or groups, or any kind of society, I guess, or culture, we always try to only look, I think, perception of the good things is always sort of at the forefront, as opposed to sort of the negative sides of things.

Speaker A: 00:27:31

And also, I guess, also doing a double-double, which is, from what you've said there...

Speaker B: 00:27:37

What the hell is a double-double? You'll see, you'll see. Hell no, it sounds like a thing from a fast food restaurant.

Speaker A: 00:27:43

Because we were talking about what's the opposite of pride, maybe it's shame. I think, actually, our humility might be right there, Nick, I don't know. But you were talking about that we tend to sort of only see, you know, within these heroes, we only see the good stuff. But what about the good stuff and the bad stuff in the bad guys? That's the double-double right there. Yeah. Now, I'm not about to say that, you know, you know, hey, the Nazis did some good things. I didn't just say that, you know. But we did talk about that once about being heroic. Do you remember that? About what was the American? Yeah, I think. Yeah, exactly. And we were talking about, imagine a Nazi soldier, you know, who does lots of wonderful heroic things, but that's... Well, they were, they were such. Right. And that's great. Yet somehow still on the wrong side. I don't know where we've gone all this, but you know what? I think we got somewhere in the end. I do think we got somewhere. So I'm pleased with what we've got there. I like that. I think the key thing is raising the questions.

Speaker B: 00:28:38

It's like that we take kind of national pride for granted, but let's ask those questions about

Speaker A: 00:28:42

whether we deserve it. I want to finish off with a quick question. I don't know if it's a good one or not. Tell me. I want to ask, you know, about personal false pride. So when have you sort of taken pride in, can you think of a time in your life when you've taken praised for something or felt proud about something that was nothing to do with you? Nick's nodding vigorously already. So hopefully Anna and Peter have got something lined up. Nick,

Speaker B: 00:29:09

go for it. I'm still ashamed of this, but I was on a work trip to India with my colleague, Alex, and we were in a, just having a chat at this sort of social event afterwards. And there were some, you know, some, some other sort of Indian, Indian people there, obviously, because it was in India. And we were just chatting to them. And the guy who was the kind of the head of the organization we were going to visit was supposed to be supposed to be turning up, but he'd, he'd been at his driver's birthday party. And so he was on his way. And my colleague, Alex said, well, how is he getting here? His driver's having a birthday party, which was, you know, I thought was quite funny, but no one heard him. So I, so I then sort of repeated the question to the woman I was talking to, and she thought it was hilarious. And she thought, I know it doesn't sound funny in the cold light of day, but she and she said, Oh, you're so funny. And I just, I couldn't then say, well, actually, I was just repeating what Alex said. So there I was, basking in the glory of this throwaway comment that nevertheless was received as though it was the funniest joke ever made. And I, yeah, I still feel kind of... She may have just been humoring you Nick, because you were

Speaker D: 00:30:19

her guest. So I'll call out for something else. Nice. Peter or Anna? I don't think I run a specific example, but I've definitely, as I've got older, feel more humble and certainly more kind of aware of my... This sounds like humble bragging to me. Go on. Yeah, humble bragging. Peter's humility is first rate. I love that guy. Yeah, I'm so humble. Yeah, I remember, you know, in my early 20s, definitely being a bit of an arrogant prick about certain things. And that sort of mellowed. Christ, you must have been the worst if you've

Speaker C: 00:30:57

mellowed since then. All these years. Yeah, yeah. I think we should stop there Peter. Oh dear. Okay, Anna? I think there was one time when I was a kid that I got a Blue Peter badge,

Speaker B: 00:31:13

if anyone remembers what Blue Peter was. Oh yeah, go on, I want to know more.

Speaker C: 00:31:17

And I think it was, so I was with my sister. My sister and I were swimming in a swimming pool and there was some currents. I think it was one of those sort of like water parks. You saved your Blue Peter badge. For, I don't know, for surviving? I have no idea. But no, she got one in the end, but I did feel awful that I received the Blue Peter badge. Have you still got it? I do, yes. Was it an administrative error? Yeah, I think it was. I think it was. Can you wear it to the next

Speaker B: 00:31:57

office party? Wear your Blue Peter badge. I'm trying to find it somewhere. I've got one which

Speaker A: 00:32:03

is, when I lived in Brazil, I thought I was a surfer. So I had a surfboard which my name for it was Jesus. That was my surfboard. And basically I looked bloody amazing walking around on the beach with Jesus the surfboard. But unfortunately, I'm actually not very good at surfing. And so all I could really do with this surfboard, apart from swim out a bit and fall over, was just walk around the beach with it. And so I did, because it looked really cool. I took a lot of pride in it. But of course, pride becomes before a fall, literally in this case. So what happened, I remember this one day I was walking along with Jesus under my arms, and I walked past these very beautiful girls, these three Brazilian girls. And I just looked at them. And they, you know, obviously checking out with my surfboard, going, look at that cool surfer guy. And I just looked at them and went, boy, which means like, hi. Okay. And the moment after I did it, I tripped over the leash, the lead. I just went splat into the sand and just face full of it. And the girls just, you know, just couldn't stop laughing at this stupid gringo, basically. So yeah, there you go, kids. Pride comes before a fall. It sounds like the universe struck you down. Yeah, it did. Yeah.

Speaker C: 00:33:23

Jesus taught you a lesson.

Speaker A: 00:33:26

Thank you. Okay, we'll stop there. Thank you, as always, for listening to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast. I'm Fraser McGruer, being here with Anna Pearson, Peter Coghill and Nick Hare of Aleph Insights. Until next time, goodbye.