Perfect Weather

Speaker A: 00:00:00

Hello and welcome to the Cognitive Engineering podcast produced by me, Fraser McGruer for Aleph Insights. In this series of podcasts, we take a look at interesting topics and discuss what we think they tell us about analysis and decision making. I'm here with Tania Sunil, Jordan Fermanis and Nick Hare of Aleph Insights. And this week we're discussing the perfect weather. Nick, famously, you are of a sunny disposition. Lead us off. Thanks very much. Well, not just me, actually, but the world in general. And when I say the world, I mean specifically London. So it's spring. It is. In fact, you could say it's nearly summer, but it's been a bit of a ropey start, a bit of rain, a bit of cold. Last few weeks, I think, you know, we've been getting up and sun has been streaming through the windows. And, you know, I have to say it gives you a whole new outlook on life. You go outside, you're ready for anything. You're interested in new things and exploring and going out and doing stuff. Now, you know, the but it seems that you can't. Is it true that you can't really have that smooth without the rough of winter? Is it simply the case that, you know, if we if it was if it was really cold, then I'd feel the same when it was just getting up to freezing. If I lived in Siberia where it was minus 40, do people feel the same about when it's minus 10? You know, likewise, if you live in a place where it's, you know, 30 degrees and that's cold, does it have an equivalent effect or is it the case that it's just objectively better for it to be nice and sunny outside? I don't know. But that's the question we want to ask. What is the perfect weather or is it is that a misconception? There's no such thing. Nice. I think about this a lot. Yeah. Tanya, Nick's struggling with this question. He's not sure how to answer it. You look like someone with answers. Go for it.

Speaker B: 00:02:06

I actually think I do agree with what Nick said, just because I have a friend who lives in Canada and here, obviously, like temperatures go to like maybe minus four maximum. But their temperatures drop to like minus 30. And the other day, I was complaining about how it was very, very cold here when around December time, and she was furious. She was like, you don't know how privileged you are. It's literally minus 30 here. And it's terrible. Minus four is, I think she described it as sunbathing weather. So I think, yes, it is, you know, very, very objective, very personal. You know, it depends on what kind of weather your particular country has. I don't think you'd necessarily have to, you know, have that 25 degrees to feel like, OK, this is great weather. I think there's but there's an important fact

Speaker A: 00:03:13

about you, Tanya, which is where you're from. Yeah, it's the opposite of Canada. Yes. Yeah. America. Well, hold on. Wait, I think no, I think it is important to know this.

Speaker B: 00:03:28

No. Well, OK. Yes. So I'm from Dubai. OK, so it's relatively, relatively hot. Yeah. Temperatures rise to like about 50 degrees. So naturally for me, minus four is like a huge drop, considering that I've lived there for like 20 years of my life. So I guess we can take that into consideration. But my friend who lives in Canada was also living in Dubai. So I think that's

Speaker A: 00:03:56

part of what's going on here, actually. But also, I think we can sort of we can frame this really nicely. Dubai, too hot. Canada, too cold. Right. England just right. Yeah, absolutely. Like so many other things. Yeah, absolutely. But also, I think what would be interesting, your mate in Canada is I mean, I think the fact that they're from Dubai as well or used to living in Dubai, that's that sort of, you know, skews things maybe. But also I'm interested to know when it gets to zero and as you say, she says it's sunbathing weather. Does she feel that same sort of verve in her life like Nick does at this time of year? Does she or is it? And in fact, other Canadians around her, are they all like, oh, this is amazing. It's just so nice when it gets to zero. Do you have any

Speaker B: 00:04:40

thoughts on that? Yeah, I do think it is like that. Once she called me when it was around like minus 10. And she literally showed me how everyone around her was wearing shorts and a t-shirt. So I guess, yeah, for them, you know, that's when they go out a lot more. And yeah, that's

Speaker A: 00:04:59

sort of summer for them, I guess. But in Dubai, when it drops to the freezing cold temperature of say 25 degrees, do people put on coats and wooly scarves and things? Yes, I used to wear a jacket. Yeah. And I've seen this in Brazil. They can't wait to break out their jumpers when it hits 20 degrees. And I'm not exaggerating. I can't believe these foreigners. I know they're funny, aren't they? So but before we go, I think there's a sliding scale thing here. And I think there's related to happiness of individuals and externalities as well. I think there's a similarity

Speaker C: 00:05:32

going on there. But you're right, I've got some interesting data to report. I found a paper by a team of researchers from America, the US, China and the UK. And they ran a study on the ideal weather temperature. They had I think they did it was like survey data, I think 1.6 million people in the survey, mainly in the US and China. And the result was that the Goldilocks temperature for humans, not too hot, not too cold, was 22 degrees Celsius. And that was taking into consideration, like subjective things, like just what felt pleasant, but also like biological, you know, like what a temperature does to you sweating, you know, like feeling like cold, that sort of thing. And the interesting thing was that they found that people that lived in cities with an average annual temperature of this 22 degrees Celsius, tend to be more agreeable, more conscientious, emotionally stable and extroverted. So that so their finding was, where is this place? This sounds great. Their finding was that weather has a direct relationship to personality traits in people. And then they go on to sort of question how climate change, obviously, temperatures are changing around the world, how that might also affect personality types in different cities across

Speaker A: 00:07:03

the world. Yeah, I think we would have to raise the question of cause and effect, in that it might be that people who are agreeable, they want to go somewhere where it's easier to get out and about and meet people. It might be that that wouldn't suit. So I suppose you can imagine someone who was really miserable and introverted and hated going outside, would be less bothered and would be happy to go and live in, you know, it could. But that should even itself out of the data. Yeah, I'm not suggesting that that cannot be a major effect. But I thought we'd better raise it for kind of reasons of rigour, really, that, you know, there might be a selection effect going on. That's one way to do it. Another way is I think we've probably all lived... Just use our intuition. Exactly. Anecdotes. Well, no, yeah, anecdotal personal experience. There we go. So I suspect we've all sort of travelled all over the place, lived different places. Let's answer this question directly. Why not? I mean, what's the perfect climate, right? Tell me, for you, Tanya, what's the perfect climate?

Speaker B: 00:08:07

For me, I agree around like 22 to 25. But give me a place. A place. Well, personally, if I'm taking into consideration all the places I have visited, I actually like Dubai during winters. During winters, it's good. I will not say the same about summers because we have ample amount of sunlight also during winters. And the temperature is like 25 degrees. So basically, I think that the reason why, you know, this your mood changes based on the weather is because of the amount of sunshine that you get. So the more sunshine you get, the more vitamin D you have, which increases your serotonin levels and just makes your life better in general.

Speaker A: 00:08:57

Which is, for one, I am thankful because it gets this time of year and Nick's gets a little bit less cantankerous. Not completely, but I mean, yeah. Good old vitamin C, vitamin D coursing through my veins.

Speaker C: 00:09:08

Exactly. Jordan? I'd probably say a Mediterranean climate. So I'd probably I'd go for Greece or Italy or something.

Speaker A: 00:09:17

hose Saune Lumières from the: 1970

Speaker C: 00:13:27

I was going to say that, that I think natural selection and has led to sort of populations, you know, like it's, although Africa would be like our sort of the ideal climate for ancient humans, natural selection and population spread means that I think that's probably changed based on where people have lived now.

Speaker A: 00:13:49

I mean, I do feel like a fish out of water when I'm in Brazil, for example. I mean, for you, is it Scotland? I wonder if where our evolutionary ancestry is. Well, mine is basically the British Isles. So yeah. So Scotland. Yeah. So a bit cold. Yeah. Tanya, your background is southern South Asian, isn't it?

Speaker B: 00:14:11

Yeah, from South India.

Speaker A: 00:14:13

If you had to choose, would you go for more the climate in South India or the Middle East?

Speaker B: 00:14:20

Probably the Middle East. Just because...

Speaker A: 00:14:24

It's ruined my theory. Are we talking about humidity here?

Speaker B: 00:14:28

Yeah, it's a lot. So currently the temperatures are rising in South India. So right now it does go up to like 40 degrees in the state where I'm from. So and the humidity is obviously very, very high. So if you sweat, it doesn't evaporate that easily, which makes it very, very hard to survive there or be comfortable at least. Whereas in Dubai, yes, we do have some level of humidity, but it's mostly dry. So it's just easier to survive.

Speaker A: 00:14:57

You also have unbelievable levels of air conditioning. Yes. In Dubai, yeah. But I've been in that as a horrible situation. Yeah, gulping and feel like I'm walking in soup and just trying to breathe. And you just can't, it's dreadful for me. But yeah. Yeah, anyway, so we are sort of adapted sort of in the last sort of however many thousands of years to adapt.

Speaker C: 00:15:21

But the fact that we have to wear clothes and live in a climate, in living climate controlled environments as well sort of suggests that we're not particularly well suited to live in the climactic conditions.

Speaker A: 00:15:35

Yeah, it's true. Because, you know, Arabs, for example, they still use air conditioning and we use clothes. Yeah. And we use more. I think they use clothes as well. Yeah, yeah, you're right, actually. Now you come to think of it, if I picture people in the Arabian Peninsula, they are normally clothed. Yeah. No, but they wear fewer clothes and less thick clothes than we do. Right. So what I'm saying is, so on one hand, you've got this kind of evolutionary argument, which sounds quite appealing that, you know, somewhere between Africa and where our kind of more direct ancestors like him and Greece. You might think it's somewhere around there. Like if I were to draw a line between the UK and southern Africa and pick the midpoint, which might be somewhere like, I don't know, Algeria or something. Maybe that's the optimal. It's a hypothesis. Let's try. So you're, so do you fancy moving to Algeria? Yes. All right. Yes. You're on. Yeah, yeah. And I will complain if I find it's not all to my liking when I get there. Tanya, draw a line between India and Africa. Boom. Middle East. I haven't got a map in front of me. It works. He should be happy in South East, no, somewhere in Afghanistan. Afghanistan. Yeah. I don't know. I'm, my knowledge of, what about the, what's the, what's in the Indian Ocean? The Maldives? Are they there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mauritius or something. Yeah, they're good lucked out. They're well done. Okay, look, let's explore this thing of, of, of relativeness. And so in terms of, hey, what's great about, and it is true, actually, what's lovely about being in Britain is the weather does change. Famously, it's very changeable and we have a climate, we have seasons and, and as much as winter can be miserable, that makes the spring and summer all the sweeter. What do we think to this? Do we want to explore that at all?

Speaker C: 00:17:31

Yeah, I think that's definitely true. And having come from somewhere that is reasonably hot all the time, that you don't get that same contrast, which I do like about British weather, that it's, it is very seasonal and the seasons are kind of, they're different and they, and they have different weather. But, and I think also, yeah, that just shows that there are sort of cultural and regional differences that shape how we think about the weather and the temperatures that we prefer.

Speaker A: 00:18:02

Have we got, yeah, go on. I know, I've just put two things together that were there in plain sight. No, I was just thinking about the, you know, my kind of zero to 40. Yes. Let's say that you liked a bit of variation, but you didn't want the variation to be such that you would die. Yes. You might go for somewhere around zero to 40. And actually, that is pretty much what we've got, I think. In Britain. In summer, 40 is perhaps a bit on the high side for us, although we have been tickling that recently. So, so maybe, yeah. No, I think there's something we haven't touched on. We have been talking about temperature and obviously that's really important, but we haven't talked about weather. Right. So, and I think, I think, so it's, it's not just, so Tanya mentioned humidity. Obviously another feature of South India is the monsoon. So rain is another type of weather. It is. You know, the rain. Well done. And, and obviously wind is another type of weather. Yes. Right. In fact, you can have all three at the same time. This is groundbreaking stuff we're doing here. This is great. What I'm saying is these are different dimensions. Like, like if it was 20 degrees, but, but it was a hurricane and rain was falling. I think I wouldn't be happy with that either. And I would probably want to trade off a bit of, you know, the kind of wind and rain for somewhere perhaps a bit colder, but drier. So, so I'm saying we haven't really covered off the, we know what the ideal temperature is, but, but it's easy. Like I find rain sort of nice, but at the same time, I don't want too much of it. It just feels like I can't help this and I don't want to sound biased, but it does feel like all roads lead to Britain. It does feel like this.

Speaker C: 00:19:47

And to that point, I think the interesting thing that you mentioned that the monsoon, there's a season for monsoons and there's a very kind of season.

Speaker A: 00:19:54

It's so weird.

Speaker C: 00:19:55

There's a very defined period of when the monsoonal rains are going to arrive. And then when they're going to end, whereas in Britain, there's roll of the dice, isn't it?

Speaker A: 00:20:06

Every day.

Speaker C: 00:20:06

Could be windy, could rain, could be sunny, but there's no predictability. It's very unpredictable. And I think, I think that's nice.

Speaker A: 00:20:13

And which conversely, that's what makes us such stable individuals like myself. And yeah. Tanya, what are your thoughts on our ramblings? What do you, yeah.

Speaker B: 00:20:22

I actually don't like the unpredictability of Britain's weather. I just feel like one moment it's super sunny. The next moment it's raining. Like, what am I supposed to, like, how am I supposed to decide how to dress that day? It's just, it's weird because where I'm from, like, we know what it's going to be like the next day, maybe even the next month. But here it's like every 10 minutes it changes.

Speaker C: 00:20:51

That's good, because it gives you something to talk about.

Speaker B: 00:20:54

I guess, but I'd rather be comfortable. We can talk about a lot of stuff in the world, but like, like, what if you don't have an umbrella and then you're just outside and it's like pouring rain?

Speaker A: 00:21:06

Oh, you have to go into a pub, seek shelter in a pub and make friends with a local.

Speaker D: 00:21:11

Yeah.

Speaker B: 00:21:11

And then the next minute, if it gets super windy, then you're wet and you feel cold now because. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A: 00:21:17

But also you need to adopt. She's got a point. Yeah. A viewpoint on the world and just accept that it's, you know, resignation and sort of not expect too much from life. I think that's the answer. Right. And, you know, and develop a sense. Yeah. Develop a sense of stoicism. I think that's my slightly jingoistic view. It also makes it more likely that the weather will do something interesting that suits your mood. Like, it's quite nice if you're if you're feeling a bit down, if there's suddenly a crack of thunder and it starts raining and, you know, whereas if you're suddenly feeling if you're, you know, if you've had a few stressful days and it's been raining and you get up on a Saturday morning and it's sunny, that really gives you gives you that little boost and you don't you don't get that as a kind of constant temperature. And I'm not saying that's like that's going to be that's going to give you bad results just as often as it gives you good results. But but you but you are going to get good results from that. And you get the fun of it. The fun. Yeah. And the surprise. The fun of having a barbecue ruined by rain. Yeah. You know. But also that sort of sense in the middle of the winter when you get a sunny day. Oh, yeah. Isn't that lovely? Yeah. Or that beautiful, crisp, sunny day. Yeah. Or that uncertainty you need to and sort of the slight sort of resignation to misery and mishap you know, you got your birthday coming up in June and you know, it could all go. Yeah, my friend Lou got married on in some ridiculous like July where it was never. Never ends, never ends. And it was it was outdoor wedding. Absolutely chucked it down. So we all had to we all had to huddle in the green in this greenhouse and get some and have some drinks brought round. And it's very memorable. Yeah, exactly. Dad was walking her along with the umbrella in his hand. You know, Jordan, you look like you were going to say something. But before you do, I feel that we're drifting. I feel we're drifting in banalities a bit at the moment. I've got a few things we can. Can I talk about construal level theory? I guess so. Yeah. But wait. Yeah. Just say because I just feel like we're saying a bit of. This seems to happen a lot. Can I just say finish what I'm saying? Yeah. I go, oh, don't worry. I've got this thing we can talk about. And then you keep going. The problem is we haven't got anything to talk about. But you think you've got something about it. But I'm not sure that, you know, I just feel we're drifting. Right. Wait, let me bloody finish. Let me finish. Here I am saying I don't know if it's going to rain or it might. And you're going you're standing with an umbrella. That's what you're telling me. Right. But look, I just feel at the moment we're going a bit of this, a bit of that. We haven't really brought it all together. I know that Nick's got something dynamite he's going to give us. But before we do, Jordan, anything to finish off because you look like you're going to say something.

Speaker C: 00:24:00

I was going to say something, but I'll save it. I want to hear what Nick has to say first.

Speaker A: 00:24:06

OK, Nick.

Speaker C: 00:24:07

I'm interested in this construal. Yeah, you have the floor.

Speaker A: 00:24:10

No. OK, so it's just it's a theory I've long nurtured, actually, about why weather what weather does. Is it one of your theories? Well, I'm putting together bits of other theories. OK, so, yeah. And personal observation. Construal level theory is a sort of intuitive, but an argument based on bringing together findings from lots of different studies, looking at different aspects of cognition and behaviour and decision making, which says that actually we have a quite a small number of, well, construal levels. What does that even, what does construal mean? No, it's basically a mindset with which you can approach a particular task. Let's put it that way. OK. So there is so and they're often called far and near. Right. So if so, a near level construal will be one where you are thinking about it emotionally and anecdotally and as though you were in it and so on. A far level construal would be more like, well, what decision you would make about other people and emotion free and fact driven. Right. Well, at least one of us is nodding. Keep going. So the point is that this, no, because you look at lots and lots of different ways that people approach all kinds of different problems, like even down to how we perceive different colours. And, you know, basically there are these two construal levels with which we can apply the way we think about different problems. Now, I think that rain is near and sun is far. Right. I don't, I know that's sort of almost literally true because the rain is actually on your face, but the sun is in space. Right. But I think it's metaphorically true as well. And this is all about metaphors because it's how your brain, you know, analogises effectively. So I think that when it rains, it encourages you to look at where you are. It's harder to go outside. So you look inwards, you think about, maybe I should get that thing, put that picture up. And, you know, you're tactical. What am I doing today? But the sun, I think, encourages taking a far view. You can see further. Again, it's all metaphorical. But it also encourages you to think strategically. What will I do next week? What will I do next year? New possibilities open up. It's easier to go exploring over that hill. Right. I, what, as I said, it's a theory, but it feels intuitively right to me. And I think that's why. It feels intuitively rubbish to me. That's why I like the sun. The sun, I feel like it's time to take on new projects and start new stuff. So that's the feeling of positivity. I get from good weather. I don't feel good about the hot, nice weather, for example, because I want to go outside and sunbathe. That's, I don't actually like being outside in the sun. I like it because it encourages me to think in a positive, future-oriented way. There you go. Construal level theory. What's another one that's not to do with climate or weather? Or does it only relate to, does construal level theory only relate to climates and weather? No, it relates to everything. Go on then, go on, give us another one. Well, I mean, hot and cold, for example, is another thing that maps onto this near and far distinction. So, you know, the way we feel about hot things is different to the way that we feel about cold things. As I said, like the way that you, we relate to, the way that we relate to stories about people, it can be in, we can think about that as though they're people we know and care about and feel emotion towards. Or we can think of them in terms of, as though they're, you know, actors and we don't know them and we're making, we're thinking about them as objects. That's just another example. It's pretty all-encompassing. And the reason you're sceptical is because you haven't quite grasped it. But I can, just look it up. Nonetheless, thank you for indulging me this far. It's very kind of you, thank you. Yeah, because famously you talked about going out and exploring. That's what the weather makes us feel like doing. I think so, yeah. Famously not many British explorers. So, yeah. They didn't like setting out when the weather was bad. They only did it when it was sunny. I see, I see.

Speaker C: 00:28:13

They set out in the summertime.

Speaker A: 00:28:14

Yeah, well, okay. So, yeah, you've got it then. Nailed it. Yeah. Okay, look, let's finish this off. I don't think I quite understood your theory, if I'm honest. Well, the construal level. No, no, no, no, no, no, but I'm not saying I want to. You're sceptical about the thing called construal level theory, which I'm not here to defend because it's not mine. My bit is thinking about the weather in that context. Don't tell me what I do and don't understand.

Speaker C: 00:28:40

It's a framework, I think. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: 00:28:42

I don't need to be told what I do, what I'm getting or not getting about something by you. I'm just saying I'm not interested in it. Oh, okay. No, no, what I'm saying is. So, you're a very near construal person. You don't like far level construal. No, stop doing it. Yeah, no, no. So, I'm not even saying I'm being non-judgmental. I'm being neutral about it. What I'm saying is you might have something great there. Good. And well done. Thanks. I think we should think about good things that come from bad weather. All right. Okay. Because good weather is boring. Yeah. Really boring. Let's think about some nice things to say about normally what weather that people normally criticize. Yeah, okay. All right, fine. Let's do that. Let's leave your theory to the side for a moment. I'm not saying I don't agree with it. I just need to come back and look at it again. Yeah, let's round this off. Let's try and be nice about bad weather. Poor old bad weather gets a terrible reputation. Let's try and think of some nice things that bad weather gives. Well, we have to agree what bad weather means. Well, I think we probably mean cold and rainy, that kind of thing. Cold, wet, windy. Right. Sub-zero. And also, like, ridiculously hot. I've got one. Go on. It's really practical. One good thing about sub-zero weather is that stuff dies. Animals die when it's sub-zero. Bad, let's say. Good is that because it's so cold, they don't decompose until the spring. And they don't try and eat you, unless they're polar bears. Yes. Okay. And so, therefore, I'm not only going to give you something good about bad weather, I'm going to give you something bad about good weather.

Speaker D: 00:30:20

Yeah.

Speaker A: 00:30:20

So, the good about the bad weather is that stuff doesn't smell. But then come the springtime, it's a good time, right? No. Smell of death everywhere. Because I remember this from when I lived in Poland. I don't know if I've sort of brought us down a bit there. I know, it's gone a bit weird. Yeah, like decomposing bodies. Yeah, maybe that's all a bit too, yeah. Anyone? No, no, hold on. We're just running with that. I think I'm going to garble some names and dates here. But I've got in my head the idea that Francis Bacon, no, not the artist, the scientist guy, or is it Roger Bacon, was travelling through Highgate with a dead chicken and it had snowed and he put some snow up its bottom and thereby invented frozen food. This is coming from a very deep level of my subconscious. But it's something like that. The point is that without cold weather, we wouldn't have discovered frozen freezing as a method of preservation. Either that or this is your dream that you had. Maybe his name was Captain Birdseye, I can't remember. Yeah, so either Tanya or Jordan, go for it.

Speaker C: 00:31:26

I need a bit more, because refrigeration, Nick stole mine. Ah, he stole yours.

Speaker A: 00:31:29

Because mine's kind of refrigeration, isn't it?

Speaker B: 00:31:32

I can talk about like a personal sort of memory.

Speaker A: 00:31:35

Go on.

Speaker B: 00:31:36

Basically, I'm not a big fan of rain. But I feel like weather like rain or, you know, when it's cold, those sort of things really bring like your family together, in a way, like you sit at home and you have hot chocolate together, or you just, you know, watch movies together. Whereas otherwise, when you go out, it's more of like an outdoor activity. Whereas when you're home, it feels more personal, more...

Speaker A: 00:32:06

This sounds like a theory that I once came up with, called construal theory. Where it's exactly this. But also board games in the winter.

Speaker B: 00:32:16

Yeah, and when I used, when we were kids, me and my cousins, we used to make like paper boats and put it in like puddles when it used to rain. All of those were like really nice memories.

Speaker A: 00:32:26

This is, I'm feeling quite wistful now. Yeah, about the fancy bit of rain. Yeah. And yeah, Jordan.

Speaker C: 00:32:33

I do have one. Really high heat to minimal clothing required. I think that's a big plus.

Speaker A: 00:32:42

Because you don't, you're seeing his body.

Speaker C: 00:32:44

Yeah, you're not feeling, you're not feeling cold. You can show it off at last. You can walk around the house, you don't have to.

Speaker A: 00:32:50

And you know how Aussies can't, any excuse to take their top off.

Speaker C: 00:32:53

Yeah, exactly. Whereas when it's cold, you've got to wear all these layers of clothes.

Speaker A: 00:32:57

As soon as you get out of bed, you're freezing. No, he's absolutely right.

Speaker C: 00:33:00

When it's really hot, you just, no, it's easy. No clothing required.

Speaker A: 00:33:04

Yeah. And in fact, if it's too hot, there is that, the unbelievably fantastic relief of jumping into the pool. Like that is really good, isn't it? Like ridiculously hot gives you that cooling off. You never get a heating up that is the same as that cooling off. You know, you could stick a jumper on or put the fire on, but it's going to take a while to get going. But that cooling off is a one way experience. Nice. Yeah. But I haven't, yeah. You've got another thing. Because the other thing I was going to say is also, so my wife, she hates Switzerland. Right. And why? Because she has to put so many clothes on. Oh, I thought it might be something to do with Swiss people. Well, that's more me than her. But yeah, so Nick, round us off. Civilisation, technology. Go on. Well, I think it's probably, there's probably a good reason to say that almost all of the technology we've invented, at least at the beginning, if you think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, absolutely top or is it bottom of that? I think it's the bottom, is shelter, isn't it? Like shelter comes almost before food. You've got to get that sorted before you can start doing the other stuff. And so a lot of kind of early technology is about that survival against the elements. Things like pottery, you know, protecting stuff you've got. Roofs, so for which you need, you know, pottery and fire and all of these other things. Fire, probably one of the earliest inventions. You know, all of these things which have come from the need to battle the elements. So, you know, without, if we just, we would still be, you know, hairy and just, you know, living in, living on the plains without even a club to wield. I've got one knock dead argument for this, right? Yeah, go on. So the... I thought you were going to start talking about the fertile crescent, but keep going. What's the continent with the highest per capita number of scientists? Per capita? Yeah. Ooh, it's going to be like, it's going to be Oceania or something. Asia. Antarctica. Yeah, yeah, there you go. So the harshest continent on earth has produced the highest number of scientists. It makes you think, it makes you think. Shut up, Jordan. They haven't come from Antarctica. Antarctic society is incredibly advanced. Yeah, absolutely. They're right up there with those Lux, with those amazing Olympians, Lux and Borgians. Brilliant. I think we pulled it off. We, together, we weathered that storm. Well done. Good. So let's stop there. Thank you, as always, for listening to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast. I'm Fraser McGruer. We've been here with Tania Sunil, Jordan Fermanis and Nick Hare. Thank you very much. Until next time. Goodbye.