Old Vs New
Do you prefer a Georgian terraced house or a new build? Classic cars or a Tesla? We often assume that because something is old it must hold intrinsic value. But is there a downside to valuing the old over the new? How old do things have to get before age becomes a defining feature?
In this week’s episode, we discuss the old and new. We speak about architecture, pubs, psychology, technological progress, house prices, John Betjeman, Chesterton’s fence and Peter presents an idea for an old vs new thought experiment. Finally, we share our favourite old and new things.
A few things we mentioned in this podcast:
- The Ancient House, Walthamstow: London’s oldest house
- List of demolished buildings and structures in London
- Buying a new build vs old house: Which is better?
For more information on Aleph Insights visit our website https://alephinsights.com or to get in touch about our podcast email podcast@alephinsights.com
Transcript
Hello and welcome to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast produced by me, Fraser McGruer for Aleph. In this series of podcasts we take a look at interesting topics and discuss what we think they tell us about analysis and decision making. I'm here with Peter Coghill and Nick Hare of Aleph and this week we're discussing London's oldest house. Uh, I wanted to say something funny but yeah.
Speaker B:In before, so talking of old decrepit things, over to Nick.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, you know, that's where you're going. Very predictable dad jokes. Yeah, yeah. But just because they're predictable doesn't mean they're not amazing and funny and yeah, it doesn't mean that but as it happens they're not. Well, I think you've done it there for us, thank you. Nick, you went to London's oldest house.
Speaker B:Yeah, I have to say, it's great story, great story.
Speaker A:Disappointingly new. Oh, okay. Well, let me take a guess. So, I'm going to say, well, it must be, it's going to be medieval, surely. Go for, yeah. Just. Okay.
Speaker B: on, which was built in around: Speaker A:to preserve. Are you interested in trying to do it? I'm trying to. It's not going to work. I mean, look, it's too obvious. No, I mean, yeah. I mean, it's the only kind of jokes I know, but I'm going to keep trying. I'm going to keep trying. Yeah. Where do we want to go with this? So at the moment, we've got old stuff. What's that all about? You know, at what point does something come old? Just because something's old, is it interesting? Yeah. Let's go to Peter,
Speaker C:then come back to you and let's see. So I don't think that the criteria for listed buildings necessarily completely hinges on the age of a building. Right. Right. No, because you get lots of modern stuff that's... Well, exactly. But also, I think it's largely driven by the uniqueness of it. So if there's historical relevance, historical importance to it, but also if it's architecturally sort of rare, will be a driver greater than... Of note. Yeah. But I guess rarity is a function of, as it happens. It happens to be a function of age. Yeah. So I think, you know, taking the Official Preservation Act or whatever it is, probably doesn't weight age particularly that high. But I get your point that, yes, there's a sort of preference for in people, a preference for old things over new things. I mean, that's... Isn't that... Are we
Speaker A:getting ahead of ourselves a bit there? Or... Well, I just wanted to distinguish between
Speaker C:things that are inherently worth preserving for some psychological reason versus they are officially worth preserving because there's a preservation order on them. I just wanted to
Speaker B:nail that slightly. Right. Sure. I mean, I don't know actually what the status of this building is. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to just demolish it. Yeah. But I think that, yeah, the question... This hinges on not that. It's not about, OK, is this unique or interesting? It's actually where the oldness itself is the, or if you like, the only interesting thing about it.
Speaker A:So sorry. Sorry. What are we trying to define? What's our question here? What are we trying to answer? And sorry, you might have just... I know you asked... How does it work? How does
Speaker B: So let's put it this way. In: Speaker A:old stuff fan. Well, let's go to the heart of it then. Why do you think that is? So old stuff often has character. Okay. And of course, there's, I know, I recognise there's going to be lots of exceptions to this, but old stuff can be quite character. Can we drill into what you mean by character a bit? Yeah, it could be a bit circular. Okay. So for example, it can be quite, so by character, I guess I'm talking about irregular, let's say. Yeah. It's kind of not mass produced. It's got chips in it. And it's got to have lived. And there's like that weird
Speaker B:window that was added 200 years later. The furniture is all different. And, you know, there's a wonky wall in the living room. Yeah, yeah. And so that can be houses. It could be
Speaker A:watches. I mean. Yeah, but you say that's good, but they're all things that are defects. Absolutely. And that's it. I'm not saying that they're good. I'm saying that's what I like,
Speaker B:right? Yeah, but you don't, you wouldn't like them in a new build. You'd say that we built
Speaker A:this as shit. Absolutely. Yeah, they're snags. Absolutely. Yeah, no, I like old stuff. It's I like often, you know, if something's got a history to it, even clothes, I like old clothes. I don't mean I walk around from the Regency period. What I mean is like, even clothes that have got holes in them. I'm forever getting in trouble with my family and strangers who are picking me up on why you've got holes in your jumper. Well, I like my bloody jumper. I think people get too
Speaker B: rse, is going to be quite new: Speaker A:Yeah, we need to get busy with this, right? Well, the good well, okay. I mean, I think destroying
Speaker B:some of that so that we can have the right but so I think I think there's some just to go into a bit on why it's nice. You've talked about character and I agree with that. But I'll tell you I'll tell you something I like. Yeah. I like them because you cannot just make an old house. You just can't do it. You have to have started 500 years ago, right? That in itself, I just and I think there's something about that aesthetic, which says, look, that has been there for a long time. And we could have knocked it down. But in fact, we could have just knocked it down once and it wouldn't be there anymore. It's very hard to knock something down. You can you could you have to not knock it down every day for 500 years if you wanted to still be there. You knock it down once it's gone. But you've got to sit there not knocking it down for 500 years. That just makes it intrinsically rare. And that's why I think I like the fact that it's hard. You can't just mass produce them.
Speaker C:Old things, they're not making any more of them.
Speaker A:Yeah. And actually, that sort of answers something I sometimes think about and sorry, I know we need to come to you, Peter and your your hatred of old stuff. But which is it I find it there's a weird anomaly, which is or a paradox, let's say, where in Britain, a lot of stuff can look very similar. So think about terrorist streets, a lot of Victorian stuff around. And they all look the same. Yeah. And yet they don't because because they've been around a while. Okay, not that long in the sort of scales we're talking about. But compared to like lots of new builds, and I'm thinking like somewhere like America, for example, where they're kind of meant and designed to look differently, sort of big houses. And yet somehow their differentness and the attempts to make different actually kind of makes them look quite similar. And it was something which is exactly the same. You can't force it ages. Yeah. So anyway, Peter, you're more new kind of guy. Well, just
Speaker C:on the they're not making any more, more of them. Actually, they are. Because every for whatever, whatever threshold we decide is the threshold for oldiness that is inherently interesting. Every year, there's more of those things around. You know what, that's the kind of army. So assuming positive economic growth, right? Also assume and also assuming that the economy size is related to how many things that some of which might become all give you that are created. And also as the as there's more surplus in the economy, there's more surplus for looking after the things we already have. Yeah. So more things likely survive. So there's a there's a correlation there that you know, as the economy grows, there's going to be more old things in the future.
Speaker B: y that, you know, in the year: Speaker C:There could be loads of old things. I think that I think I suspect though, that modern, modern practices of having inherent finite lifespan in things will actually counter this, this effect. But I think on, on average, you'll still have more old things. I'm thinking old things, including, you know, antiques and knickknacks. Yeah, that's right. We're not just talking about
Speaker B:houses, actually. Yeah. So yeah, it's a good point. Like in the new buildings, what do you get with new builds? Bloody reinforced aerated concrete, which falls down after 30 years.
Speaker A:Although we don't want to, I mean, do you like antiques, Peter?
Speaker C:So I don't dislike old things. I'm agnostic to old things. I would usually rather have and own and use a new thing. But I can appreciate old things. And why is this? It's because you're
Speaker A:a sort of, no, well, you answer it, not me. Because I think it's, I think, as the listeners
Speaker C:know, I have aspired to a very minimalist Spartan kind of life. And so having old things around
Speaker A:is just like baggage. Yeah, no, and it goes wrong. And it's got unnecessary bits and you know,
Speaker C:yeah, yeah. And everything I own has a purpose. It's useful in some way, rather than just existing. I have nothing that, the only reason I have it is because I like it. It doesn't make any sense to me. I like things because they're useful. So I like my laptop because it's useful.
Speaker A:But in the words of that great philosopher, Nick Hare, le superflu, how do you say it? Le superflu chose to be necessary. I wanted to finish it. Oh, okay. Yeah. So yeah, the superfluous is just so necessary. That's your Voltaire, I think. Yeah, I was. Okay, so, but yeah, no, I take your point. I take your point.
Speaker B:Okay. I mean, I think, so I think Peter's looked at the psychology a bit. But isn't there at least an argument for saying that, in a way, you should assume that new, old things are going to be better, right? Because there is a filtering process that would have got rid of the duff things. So, for example, you know, if you buy an old pen or something, you know, an old fountain pen, that has survived a lot of chances for people to throw it out. And you kind of assume, well, they haven't done. Therefore, this is probably quite a good one, right? And is that true of, say, a bicycle is a penny farthing, actually, really, you know, if people were still or
Speaker C:something like that, you know? I think that would be true if you assume, in a way, technological progress. Right. You assume that we long ago forgot how to make pens. And so they were, or we forgot how to innovate a pen manufacturer. We could only make pens using the same pen making machinery in exactly the same way. Then yes, it would be true that the older ones are going to be less print
Speaker B:I guess people would make that claim about some things like violins or Japanese swords or whatever, where the allegation would be that there is a level of craftsmanship, which we don't have anymore.
Speaker C:Yeah. Yeah. But pens you want was a pen for me. Extreme me pens for writing. Just give me a weird old Mitsubishi Uniball any day. But I can, I can, I can see what I could see the appeal of nice old pens. So if I went to a museum and there's a cabinet full of very nice, unique pens, I'd be like, yeah, nice pens. Might spend a few minutes looking at it, but I wouldn't want to own any of those. They're inferior writing experience to the Mitsubishi, Mitsubishi Uniball.
Speaker B:And you're not interested in the fact that it's Charles, Charles Dickens, his own pen that he wrote Bleak House with. You're not interested in that. All right. Doesn't make it any better at writing, does it?
Speaker C:Probably not. So the psychology of old things. Yes. Yeah. So I couldn't find much. It seemed like with the small amount of research I did, it seems like a bit of a black hole in terms of psychology research. There's quite a few articles, speculative articles, but not many big juicy studies about this. But the best of the summary I found was that it was probably highly, it's very multi-level in the sense that any given individual, there's lots of different drivers making you like things. So things like Nick mentioned in his anecdote about going for a walk. For him, there was a thrill of hunting about the oldest house and going and finding things is inherently fun because it's active and it's physical. For people who collect old things, there's an inherent completionism driver, be that pathological in the sense that you're obsessional about it or you just like having, there's a pleasure in having a complete set of vintage cutlery or something. You want it to be complete. But there's also, you know, nostalgia can be positive in the sense that it drives you to, it gives you positive feelings. It's a thing we have in our brains which programs make us feel good. That could also be pathological if it's obsessional. But I think, Fraser, your point about having dings and scratches and things in houses, that's it gives you a mechanism for telling yourself a story. So there's a sort of narrative enjoyment about old houses. Either you know the story and you know who really lived there or it gives you license to imagine. Dick Turpin stayed there once.
Speaker B:Yeah. Okay. Well, no, no, I'm making that up because so many old houses claim that Dick Turpin stayed there once.
Speaker C:Okay. Yeah. So, yeah. But just even if you don't know what the history is, having old things which are imperfect because of scratches allows you to fantasize about what caused those scratches and you imbue the object with more interest than it necessarily has on.
Speaker B: le. It's been there since the: Speaker C:If I was buying a house, the kind of age of the house is a good indicator of how likely it's going to flood.
Speaker B:Right. That's a good point. Let's get on to house prices. Have you looked at that at all? I have not looked at that. But I can say I'm very odd. Okay. So I've never lived in a new house, by which I mean any house less than 100 years old. And I don't know why you would. Baffling to me. But it turns out I am not normal because...
Speaker A:Is there a premium on newer stuff?
Speaker B:Yeah, apparently. Well, they're much cheaper to run. Apparently, like a Victorian house, even one which has been sort of renovated up to modern standards, costs about double the amount to run in terms of energy costs than an equivalently sized new build. Peter will be able to explain why in terms of things to do with rendering and floorboards. Just insulation. Insulation, yeah. But I mean, it's actually really hard. I couldn't find a kind of, you know, age of property by price. And in fact, you know, it's all kinds of stats challenges trying to find out anyway. But I think the general consensus is if you want a new build, you've got to pay more in the UK anyway. And it looks like that's true in the US as well. I was surprised by that. But I think the conclusion is that there aren't that many people who are really kind of bothered by the age of where they live. And I would assume, you know, there aren't that many people who are bothered about old things in general. Maybe, maybe it's just us, Fraser. Yeah. And in fact, you know, there is a loss of vandalism. I mean, some people would see it as modernisation, but old pubs, for example. Now, I don't mean by means, you know, but I mean, just talking about a pub that always been that way for 40 years. And my instinct is, oh, well, that's obviously doing something right. Leave it alone. But a lot of people think it's overdue renovation. Let's, let's, let's get bring in some pastel shades, some comfy chairs, you know, and it ruined. So, so I think I have to conclude that I have a very strong preference for old stuff. But I don't think that's necessarily shared by.
Speaker A:Yeah, we're maybe in the minority. Yeah. And just think about something. Yeah, because that's a pet hate of mine is, is when pubs, not that they get demolished, or I'm not mad about that. It's when they get jazzed up, ponced up. It might as well be demolished. It's worse. Yeah, it's worse. It's worse. It's like seeing someone with botched plastic surgery. Yes, sort of. Yeah, it is. Just get old. Yeah, yeah, no, quite. Absolutely.
Speaker C:I've got an idea for a thought experiment. Go for it. Intuition pump. Go on. Yeah. Okay. Just, just, just test the, just for you to speculate about what your preference is, and how it works. So imagine you've got three streets next to each other. Imagine Haringey Ladder, but it's built in very different eras, right? So in the, in, in, in new terrace, right, you've got brand new buildings built. They opened last week. People are still in the building. Just started moving into them. Next street back, you've got Victorian houses, like your streets. Yeah, your house is there. And then in Ancient Avenue, you've got completely Elizabethan houses. So pre-Fire of London, kind of lilly oak buildings, all crooked, wonky windows, etc. Which of those, do those three streets as you're walking through them, give you different sense of compulsion? Like, which ones do you like? Do you like any of them more than the others?
Speaker A:Way more. Yeah, it must be the same for us. It's gonna be that Ancient House Street. I love that place. That's, there's just so much to explore.
Speaker B: Diagon Alley wasn't built in: Speaker C:So if you're walking, so that's you walking around. So now, if you were given your pick of a house to live in, and you couldn't live in any other house ever again, which one would you pick? I'm afraid it's the same. Yeah, same. Yeah, even with all the pain and annoyance and everything else that comes with it. Especially with the pain and the annoyance and everything else that comes with it. Well, where would you rather be in the new build? I would rather go for a walk around the older houses. Yes, because they're more interesting, inherently interesting. But I would definitely much rather live in the modern house. Yeah, interesting. All else being equal.
Speaker A:Look, one thing though, we're towards the end here. But I know we sort of tabled this as, hey, we're talking about London's oldest house. But really, what we wanted to talk about was old stuff. Okay. Yeah. But actually, counterintuitively, and we have ended up talking about houses, mainly, right? Because each time we've talked mainly about houses, I briefly mentioned clothes. And we talked about antiques as well, right?
Speaker B:But actually, we're not really talking about old stuff. We're talking about houses. I just think they're a really good example. Yeah. And they're so immediate. And it's one of the oldest things that we can be in contact with and have in our lives. And they're usually documented as well. Whereas, you know, I've got things like my Uncle Jimmy bequeathed to me some finger picks for his mandolin. I had no idea they might be 200 years old.
Speaker A:Things don't come with title deeds and things. You can't track them. True. But it reminds me of that episode we did about artisanal stuff, right? We're not a million miles away from that, right? But also things like weapons. If you're a soldier, you forget the stuff you put over your mantelpiece. If you're a soldier, are you going to be valuing old weapons that are 100 years old? What, you mean to go out with a musket when you're on the front line? Russians seem to be making a good go of that in Ukraine. Countries. Do we value older countries?
Speaker B:Yes, I've got a bone to pick with the Italians.
Speaker A:Yeah, not really an old country at all, actually.
Speaker B: lini invaded it. It was about: Speaker A:The United Kingdom. China. The United Kingdom is not an old country, though, right? Right, but it's made up of old country. But there's old stuff in it. And some of the states within it are quite old. But yeah, photos, computers, roads. And I don't mean like, I don't mean the route. Or the actual substance. Yeah, the route. Or maybe even like, would you prefer a tarmac motorway or a tract?
Speaker B:I do like the thought that the road I'm walking on was built by the Romans. And there have been people walking down that road forever.
Speaker A:Yeah, me too. But I mean, like, M25, you know, it's probably best.
Speaker B:It's good enough, really, for me to be interested.
Speaker A:Well, you say that, but you would rather, you might not be interested in it, but you would probably rather go on that to drive somewhere, rather than, you know, you wouldn't go on it so much if it was just mud tracks that went around London. No, that's also fair. So maybe, I don't know. I mean, I don't think you two are sort of picking up what I'm putting down here. Not really. No.
Speaker B:It's hard to tell what you're putting down.
Speaker A:I think you're describing would you rather the good thing or the rubbish thing.
Speaker B: ngs? So we got in just in the: Speaker A:Anyway, that's enough for me. Yeah, no, nice sum up. You did it. You shaped it. Thank you. Let's just finish off. Question. What I was thinking of asking was for us two, what's our favorite modern thing? And for Peter, what's his favorite? What's his favorite old thing? Yeah. So that question. What's your favorite old thing, Peter? Can we narrow it a bit? Old building, maybe?
Speaker C:Take it as you want it. OK, I'm going to go with old building. I'm a huge fan of some of the engineering marvels in Verdecomma buildings that you get around the place. So old bridges, Tower Bridge is a good example of a Victorian bridge. Pretty cool. It still works.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:They don't open it very much, but it works.
Speaker B:For me, it's relatively new or it's newer than it looks. But it was designed to look a bit like the Tower of London. And it's therefore, actually in theory, unspeakably naff. And I think a lot of tourists think it's medieval. Yeah.
Speaker A:So that's why I was surprised because it's sort of modern. But anyway, yeah. It's Victorian.
Speaker B:We're British, so that's modern.
Speaker A:That's last week. Yeah. But it's sort of modern and it's mimicking something from the past. That's what I mean. It's not really modern, but yeah.
Speaker C:What is quite marvellous is older things that stand testament to the amount of ingenuity and effort put in. So things like canals. Canals in England aren't that old, but there are much older canals around the Middle East and things.
Speaker B:I just went to the Corinth Canal. Yeah. That's pretty amazing. Yeah. Although that's not that old.
Speaker C:These things dug by hand. Yeah. So people working hugely long hours digging, creating all these marvellous things. What's your favourite new thing?
Speaker A: tually. But anyway, it's this: Speaker B:Yeah. I think I'd go with the city of New York. It's even got the word new in it. That's how new it is. That's how new it is. But it's, you know, that's an example of new done right. And I don't mean, obviously, some bits of New York are quite old. But it's more, and I think it's one thing I really like about the Americans, they represent the opposite, I suppose, of my British conservatism. A very can-do, you know, we can build a whole city overnight here, you know, and then with almost a kind of rejection of old stuff, which is what their whole country is based on. And, you know, it's awe-inspiring, you know. And yeah, so I also can love new things. Yeah. You don't have to be old.
Speaker A:But also, ironically, one of the things I think Americans can do really well in New York, I mean, I agree with you. And one of the things that I think is great in New York is you can go to a diner that's just sat like that for 50 years. Yeah. And they've not bloody touched it. Brilliant. Unlike us and our pub malarkey messing stuff up when it's fine, they should have left it alone.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think they do actually mess up quite a lot of things in New York. Yeah, yeah. I mean, because, you know, and I think there is that more of a spirit of reinvention, isn't there, in the States? You know, but yeah, I mean, I think there was a we as an extreme example of our kind of conservatism, I think there was a pub in Maida Vale about five years ago and a developer bought it, bulldozed it. Well, it turns out it was listed and they were forced to rebuild it bit brick by brick.
Speaker A:All right. Let's stop there. Old stuff. Give it a chance.
Speaker B:Old stuff. Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah. So thank you, as always, for listening to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast. I'm Fraser McGruer. We've been here with Peter Coghill and Nick Hare of Aleph. Until next time. Goodbye.
