National Treasures
On the hunt: what does it take to be a National Treasure? In this podcast, we discuss what it takes to be awarded National Treasure status: from niceness metrics and longevity to likeability and media endorsement. We reason why David Attenborough most definitely is a National Treasure while Bradley Walsh—alas—probably isn't, and predict who might be bestowed the honorific in decades to come.
People mentioned in this episode:
- Bradley Walsh
- Joe Pasquale
- Brian Conley
- Shane Ritchie
- London Palladium
- David Attenborough
- Judi Dench
- Stephen Fry
- Maggie Smith
- Michael Palin
- Paul McCartney
- Emma Thompson
- Ian McKellen
- Julie Andrews
- Michael Caine
- Helen Mirren
- Patrick Stewart
- Elton John
- Tom Jones
- Tom Hanks
- Meryl Streep
- Denzel Washington
- Dolly Parton
- Aretha Franklin
- Morgan Freeman
- James Earl Jones
- Bill Gates
- Neil Armstrong
- Johnny Rotten
- Benedict Cumberbatch
- Tom Hiddleston
- Eddie Redmayne
- Adele
- Emma Watson
- John Boyega
- Florence Pugh
- Dua Lipa
- Maisie Williams
Transcript
Hello and welcome to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast, produced by me, Fraser McGarfa, Aleph.
Speaker A:In this series of podcasts, we take a look at interesting topics and discuss what we think they tell us about analysis and decision making.
Speaker A:I'm here with Nick Hare and Peter Coghill of Aleph, and this week we're discussing National Treasures.
Speaker A:Nick, two words.
Speaker A:Bradley Walsh.
Speaker B:For listeners who aren't aware of who Bradley Walsh is, he is a national treasure.
Speaker B:He's a TV presenter and actor and he's a very nice guy.
Speaker B:I've got nothing against Bradley Walsh, but for some reason or other, I think an advert was presented to me on a social media site for one night only, Bradley Walsh and friends.
Speaker B:And the friends are Joe Pasquale, Brian Conley and Shane Ritchie.
Speaker B:So I thought to myself, I can't imagine a worse evening.
Speaker B:And so I, in a spirit of morbid curiosity, I clicked on it and it turns out it was at the London Palladium.
Speaker B:And the first sentence is national Treasure.
Speaker B:Bradley Walsh is usually busy on a Saturday night across our TV screen, so I can vouch for that.
Speaker B:He's on everything.
Speaker B:But for one night only, this Easter Saturday, he will host a spectacular variety show at the London Palladium.
Speaker B:And I thought to myself, well, you hold it right there, Bradley Wall Walsh, I'll be the judge of whether you're a national treasure.
Speaker B:Now, I know National Treasures.
Speaker B:I've worked with National Treasures.
Speaker B:I live on the same street as a national treasure, and Bradley Walsh is no national treasure.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And I had a very strong reaction that Bradley Walsh was setting himself up to be a national treasurer.
Speaker B:I thought, well, for one thing, you can't really decide you are.
Speaker B:But anyway, this concept of a national treasury is, I think, something which we sort of all understand and I think we want to pick into what you need to do or be to be a national treasure.
Speaker B:So I've made, I think, a fairly uncontroversial list of national treasures, British and American ones, to kick us off.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then we can start thinking about, you know, what actually, what do you need to do to get on this list?
Speaker B:Yeah, right.
Speaker A:Because I think just to be.
Speaker A:Just to say, I think you're probably right.
Speaker A:One of the things is you can't sell for point.
Speaker A:And that definitely marks you out as almost certainly not national treasure.
Speaker A:But to be fair, maybe it was, you know, Bradley Walsh's team or his.
Speaker B:I would imagine it was.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So, yeah, okay, go for it.
Speaker A:National Treasure.
Speaker B:So top of the list, David Attenborough.
Speaker A:Gotta be.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Internationally recognized national treasure.
Speaker B:He's an international treasure.
Speaker B:I think you'd say Judy Dench.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Stephen Fry.
Speaker B:And just.
Speaker B:I'll tell you who these.
Speaker B:I'm assuming everyone knows Judi Dench is an actress.
Speaker B:Stephen Fry is a good comedian, actor and writer.
Speaker B:Maggie Smith, actress.
Speaker B:Michael Palin, comedian, actor, slightly controversially, Paul McCartney.
Speaker B:I think we can discuss whether he is or not, but a musician.
Speaker B:Emma Thompson, actress.
Speaker B:Ian McKellen, Julie Andrews, Michael Caine, Helen Mirren, from the acting.
Speaker B:Patrick Stewart or from the acting domain.
Speaker B:And then you've got Elton John.
Speaker B:I would say Tom Jones in the sort of music department now.
Speaker B:I don't know, I think Peter might have looked at this, but I don't know how common the term national treasure is in the US but there are certainly people I think would be considered to be national treasures there.
Speaker B:I would say top of the list.
Speaker B:Tom Hanks, potentially there.
Speaker B:But you've also got the likes of sort of Meryl Streep, Denzel Washington.
Speaker A:They're all actors so far.
Speaker B:Yeah, but no, because in the music domain, I'd certainly put Dolly Parton.
Speaker B:You might think Aretha Franklin.
Speaker B:She died recently, but.
Speaker B:And then you also had.
Speaker B:You've also got a bunch of.
Speaker B:I mean, it is sort of a lot of actors and things, but, you know, Morgan Freeman, I would say James Earl Jones and potentially people like sort of Bill Gates and Neil Armstrong who were in the.
Speaker B:Not from.
Speaker A:Definitely Neil Armstrong.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, now died.
Speaker B:But, you know, I think you would have.
Speaker B:They would have considered him a national treasure.
Speaker B:So there we are.
Speaker B:That is a.
Speaker B:That's who we're talking about.
Speaker B:But the question is, what are we talking about?
Speaker C:Yeah, I think you got.
Speaker C:I think you've got some terrible omissions I'd like to throw.
Speaker B:Go for it.
Speaker C:Dame Julie Andrews.
Speaker A:Oh, you said her.
Speaker C:Oh, sorry.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:What about Anton Deck?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Sorry, no, I think this is.
Speaker B:I think we found a red line.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker A:And I think they were.
Speaker B:And I'll tell you why they're not.
Speaker C:What about Brian Blessed?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:And Sir Kenneth Branagh?
Speaker B:Yes, I would give you both of those.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:And from the US Side, what about.
Speaker C:What about Jimmy Carter?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:I'd be interested to know why not.
Speaker B:Well, we'll get.
Speaker C:What about Dick Van Dyke?
Speaker B:Yeah, extraordinarily.
Speaker B:I think, still alive.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So that's just a few.
Speaker C:I wanted to.
Speaker C:I thought.
Speaker C:I wanted to find some challenging ones to see.
Speaker B:So that might help us explore the.
Speaker C:Criteria for national treasure.
Speaker C:Dom.
Speaker A:Okay, well, yeah, we can delve into this.
Speaker A:I think it's actually quite difficult for us three to talk about American ones, actually, because I guess it's.
Speaker A:If it's national treasure in itself, it ties back to culture, very cultural, culturally sensitive and, you know, we can definitely feel it straight away.
Speaker A:We might agree or not, but we definitely.
Speaker A:You feel it, you know it when you see it, kind of thing.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And we can't do that with another country.
Speaker B:Nonetheless, it's because sometimes it turns out that someone, you think he's universally loved turns out to be surprisingly controversial.
Speaker A:And also it would be interesting you mentioned this.
Speaker A:You know, do they have this term, national treasure?
Speaker A:I've got an American mate, I'm meeting him later today.
Speaker A:I'll ask him this, which is, does that word, does that phrase exist?
Speaker A:Because they might call them an American hero.
Speaker A:I don't know, something like that.
Speaker A:Or a patriot.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker B:Dolly Parton.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:Anyway, yeah.
Speaker A:Anyway, Peter, look, enlighteness, this whole national treasure business.
Speaker A:When did this first come into use?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So I just.
Speaker C:Looking at the uk, I was trying to identify when the first sort of use in media or books of the term national treasure, referring to an alive, crucially alive, non fictional character, non fictional personality, be they politician.
Speaker A:Or an actual person.
Speaker C:Or an actual person.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And I.
Speaker C:And my research landed me on.
Speaker C:I at first assumed isn't a national treasure.
Speaker C:Just anyone who, the Express or Daily Mail decides it's a national treasure was my first kind of reaction to this question, but turns out not.
Speaker C: , it's the Daily Telegraph in: Speaker B:Wow, that is a long time ago.
Speaker C: ,: Speaker C:The late Queen Mother, who wasn't late at that time.
Speaker B:You would have said for sure it.
Speaker C:Wasn't celebrity, it was.
Speaker C:Well, sort of.
Speaker C:It was royal.
Speaker C: But, you know, the royals in: Speaker C:And it was the Telegraph, not the expression.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker B:And that's the first example you can find.
Speaker C:That's the first one I could find.
Speaker C:It was.
Speaker C:The term really wasn't used very much, I think in the.
Speaker C: Between then and the: Speaker C:The National Treasure thing has really kicked off.
Speaker C:But some early ones, so that were other publications in the 20th century referred to as National Treasure.
Speaker C:Other people.
Speaker C:So John Gielgud.
Speaker B:Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker C:Peggy Ashcroft.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Actor.
Speaker C:Ellen Terry, who I'd not heard of.
Speaker C:Actor, actor, actress.
Speaker C:Edith Evans, actress.
Speaker C:And Laurence Olivier.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I'll give you Larry Olivier.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So those were.
Speaker C:Those were early ones, but there have.
Speaker C:My research didn't throw up many more in the.
Speaker C:In the late 20th century.
Speaker C:It's really been.
Speaker C:It's a 21st century phenomena, really.
Speaker C:Referring to people.
Speaker B:Interesting.
Speaker A:This is when it's really taken off.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Wonder why that is.
Speaker A:A name popped into my head.
Speaker A:Tony Benn.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Can we.
Speaker B:I've got a load of pairs where I think I tried to find two people who are very similar, yet one is definitely a national treasure and one is potentially not.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Because, you know, this podcast is about analysis in part.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I thought I'd have a bit of fun with this.
Speaker A:And, you know, I'm not, you know, it's not really.
Speaker A:It's usually you guys doing the analyzing.
Speaker A:Usually.
Speaker A:It's usually you guys doing the analysis thing.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And I thought I'd do it.
Speaker A:So I've.
Speaker A:I've actually just got three things that define it.
Speaker A:So I'll be thinking those as you go through.
Speaker B:We'll see if it works.
Speaker B:Yeah, I've got many.
Speaker B:I've got more criteria.
Speaker B:I think Peter's got some criteria.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Michael Palin, national treasure.
Speaker B:Probably in the top five.
Speaker B:John Cleese.
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:I would say.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Alan Rickman.
Speaker B:The late Alan Rickman, Definitely yes.
Speaker B:Jeremy Irons?
Speaker B:Probably not.
Speaker A:I think I see where this is going.
Speaker B:Michael Caine.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Terence Stamp?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:Johnny Rotten?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:But David Bowie?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:Oh, wow, that was tricky.
Speaker B:Ringo Starr?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:George Harrison?
Speaker B:Probably no.
Speaker A:I would say no and no.
Speaker B:But Shirley Bassey?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Van Morrison?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:Going across the Atlantic?
Speaker B:Temporarily.
Speaker B:Dolly Parton?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Madonna?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:Alan Bennett?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Salman Rushdie?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:Neil Kinnock?
Speaker B:Maybe.
Speaker B:Tony Blair?
Speaker B:Definitely not.
Speaker A:Definitely not.
Speaker B:So I.
Speaker B:So I think all of those you.
Speaker B:Very superficially similar kind of people, backgrounds, ages, but very clear dividing light, so that I think hopefully we've got some material there to help us sift the national treasures from the national disgraces or whatever.
Speaker B:The opposite of a national treasure.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I can't wait to get out of this, actually, because I was thinking along which lines I feel yes or no on those against my sort of three simple criteria.
Speaker A:I mean, maybe this is the moment.
Speaker A:So when you.
Speaker A:Going through your initial list, the things that struck me is, first of all, you gotta be well known.
Speaker A:That's the first thing.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Sadly, you know, as well known as we are because of this podcast, we're probably not quite well known enough to become national treasures.
Speaker A:So we've already not got over that first Hurdle.
Speaker A:So, first of all, you gotta be well known.
Speaker C:We're treasures of a very small nation.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Maybe we're treasures in the sort of analysis and decision making podcast world.
Speaker A:We're like.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:The second.
Speaker C:Old.
Speaker A:They're all quite old.
Speaker A:But actually, with the exception of Anton Deck, who, there were sort of things, you know.
Speaker A:But it's not just old that you've been around a while.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:So that often comes with age.
Speaker A:Third, you got to be good at what you do.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:You've got to be kind of almost universally acknowledged to be good at that thing that you're.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:That you do.
Speaker A:And fourth and final, and this is a crucial one, and I must admit I'm nicking this a bit from what you said before we started.
Speaker B:You've got to be nice.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because I noticed that your three criteria have expanded to four now.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So it's four, not three.
Speaker A:So it's because I can't count.
Speaker A:I've got to.
Speaker A:I'm still trying to get the hang of this whole analysis thing.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:The fourth thing is you've got to be nice and.
Speaker A:Or sort of likable.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:People got to like you.
Speaker A:And across those four things, that's what.
Speaker A:And so I was thinking of some of the ones that you were reading then.
Speaker A:Yay or nay.
Speaker A:We can talk about John Cleese or Jeremy Irons.
Speaker A:Dig into that in a bit.
Speaker A:But there's definitely some of those where they fall down, I think.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I think I understand that.
Speaker C:You've got to be nice to also include you.
Speaker C:You've got to have not done anything naughty.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Let me give you a.
Speaker A:Sometimes the naughtiness can be.
Speaker A:He's.
Speaker B:Maybe.
Speaker C:So I think there's some falls from graces we could discuss.
Speaker B:I've got some rising disgraces to discuss as well.
Speaker A:So you're going to make the case for Rolf Harris.
Speaker A:Is this.
Speaker C:I was thinking Rolf Harris and Jimmy Savile were probably.
Speaker A:They would have definitely gone.
Speaker B:Sorry, I don't think Jimmy Savile would have ever been counted.
Speaker C:I think they were borderline.
Speaker C:They were there or they were borderline.
Speaker B:I. I will grant you.
Speaker B:I'm thinking back.
Speaker B:I would grant you that probably in a survey, a majority of people would have said Jimmy Savile was a national treasure.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I'll give you that.
Speaker C:But that dramatic fall for grace, for reasons we don't need to go into, I think that's.
Speaker C:That that sort of tells you that you've got to be.
Speaker C:You've got to be good.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And you've got to be.
Speaker C:You've got to be wholesome in some way.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And I think wholesomeness is a feature of a lot of the national treasures we sort of.
Speaker A:It can.
Speaker A:I don't think.
Speaker A:I don't think it's a necessity.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker A:I don't think it's a necessary condition.
Speaker A:I have some Johnny Rotten.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, but he.
Speaker A:I must.
Speaker A:He's a bit of an outlier.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:But you.
Speaker B:Michael Portillo.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Hated.
Speaker B:One of the most hated politicians ever.
Speaker B:Now, I think, pretty close to being an undisputed national treasure, thanks to his document, his harmless documentaries about traveling on trains.
Speaker B:But also, like Boy George was once considered a very controversial figure and is now, you know, was convicted for, you know, for drug offenses and so on.
Speaker B:Now, I think, pretty undisputed national treasure.
Speaker B:And then you've got these sort of.
Speaker C:He was.
Speaker C:But he was always kind of popular.
Speaker C:I think he's a big gay icon.
Speaker C:He's a big important in the.
Speaker C:In.
Speaker C:In gay culture, though.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But now.
Speaker B:Now I think he's regarded as a sort of elder statesman of that.
Speaker B:Of that world.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But with mainstream, you know, a lot of mainstream affection.
Speaker B:The other example would be someone like Jermaine Greer, who, of course, was a sort of real firebrand back in the day, and I think now is regarded with much more affection.
Speaker B:I know she's.
Speaker B:I think she's.
Speaker B:What, Kiwi or Australia?
Speaker A:Australian.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, I mean, affection is interesting, this word.
Speaker A:Likable.
Speaker A:Nice.
Speaker A:Affection is a big one, I think.
Speaker A:And I'm not sure people feel that affectionate about Germaine Greer.
Speaker B:Maybe not.
Speaker A:You know, she's a bit prickly.
Speaker C:So I. I've got criteria.
Speaker C:One of your criteria is interesting was about sort of like being good at something.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I didn't have that.
Speaker C:I don't think that's necessarily true.
Speaker C:And I take the Portello example.
Speaker C:He wasn't a particularly successful politician.
Speaker C:Well, I mean, he got a. I don't think he's ever national treasure, but.
Speaker C:Okay, assuming he.
Speaker C:What?
Speaker C:Assuming some people think he is like Nick does.
Speaker C:He just said it.
Speaker C:He wasn't particularly good at anything.
Speaker C:He's just.
Speaker C:He's quite good at bigger things.
Speaker B:People in the Ministry of Defense rated him as a Secretary of State, but.
Speaker A:I don't think he's likable enough still.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:The question is not whether or not you think he is.
Speaker C:The question is somebody does.
Speaker C:Well, what is he good at?
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:He's not an uncontroversial national treasure.
Speaker B:Let's Put him back on the shelf for now.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:By the way, being good at stuff.
Speaker A:Eddie the Eagle, definitely national treasure, but he was good at being bad.
Speaker B:Really interesting example, actually.
Speaker B:I don't know if you would count him as a national treasure.
Speaker B:I think he might be something slightly different.
Speaker B:Anyway, Peter, you've got some more criteria.
Speaker C:So on that.
Speaker C:But go digging into that.
Speaker C:What I did have was.
Speaker A:You got a matrix or a spreadsheet?
Speaker C:I've got five.
Speaker C:Just.
Speaker C:I've listed five.
Speaker A:Just a list.
Speaker C:So what I would say, I would say that they're sort of.
Speaker C:Longevity and consistency is important.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:So people have been around a lot doing, Doing what they do.
Speaker C:Not necessarily being the great at it or the best at it, but like Dame Judench, she's.
Speaker C:She's a.
Speaker C:She's a good actress, but she's not really amazing.
Speaker A:Oh, she is controversial.
Speaker A:She is.
Speaker B:She was regarded as one of the great stage actress before she.
Speaker C:Well, yeah, it's highly subjective, but.
Speaker C:Yes, but she's been doing it a long time and she's been doing it with grace that's developed with her raiders.
Speaker C:In a similar way.
Speaker B:She definitely aged.
Speaker B:Aged gracefully.
Speaker B:That's right, yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Another criteria which is sort of related is that what I've got.
Speaker C:I call it sort of cultural and social impact in that they've.
Speaker C:They've.
Speaker C:Even if they're not doing it in a politically brilliant way, they, they're quite sort of.
Speaker C:They've had quite a lot of impact on things.
Speaker C:So I'm, you know, Stephen Fry, he's a.
Speaker C:He's a.
Speaker C:He's a writer, comedian, director.
Speaker C:But he's also big in.
Speaker C:He's big in comedy.
Speaker C:So they, you know, they were one of the big comedy duos, Ryan Laurie.
Speaker C:They were.
Speaker C:But he's also done lots of work in.
Speaker C:In various advocacy things, mental health advocacy and all sorts of other things.
Speaker C:So he's contributed in lots of different ways.
Speaker C:So that.
Speaker C:Lots of.
Speaker C:So lots of media, sort of lots of social impact and I think.
Speaker C:But also, you know, relating to the proficiency in things that I've got recognition and honours.
Speaker C:I think you can sort of get your.
Speaker C:You can get your way to being a national treasure by picking up lots of.
Speaker C:By being officially recognized for doing things I digest.
Speaker B:But you still got to be.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:And it's a bit like being impactful is a result of doing something that's a high profile thing that you're good at.
Speaker B:I think it helps to be impactful, but I don't think it is not enough.
Speaker B:I mean, Jason Orange.
Speaker B:He's not a national treasure.
Speaker B:Neither is that Robbie Williams.
Speaker B:Neither.
Speaker B:And I'm sure they've done a lot of great work for charity.
Speaker B:But I. I think Jason Orange in particular.
Speaker B:I mean, I think you have Jason Orange, I think.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:The guy who keeps doing the charity concerts and stuff.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker A:Are you.
Speaker A:I'm not sure.
Speaker B:Like, that is just not enough.
Speaker B:I like people who do lots of work for charity.
Speaker B:Not enough.
Speaker A:Something that just popped into my mind as well was when we were thinking about.
Speaker A:When we're talking about Johnny Rotten, but also Lily Savage.
Speaker A:Stroke.
Speaker C:Paul.
Speaker B:Paul o'.
Speaker B:Grady.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Paul o', Grady, I think.
Speaker A:Definitely.
Speaker B:Well, I think you would.
Speaker B:You would say so.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it made me think about this thing about national identity as well, and how it ties in, because they're both quite a bit naughty, a bit sort of, you know, eccentric.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And that ties into what the British like to think of themselves as being eccentric.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:But, Peter, are you.
Speaker B:Have you got some more criteria or are you.
Speaker C:Yeah, so keep going.
Speaker C:Two more, which I think might actually be one, but one is public affection and admiration.
Speaker C:That's a bit woolly, but people are going to like you.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think that's a feature of their.
Speaker B:Did you say niceness or is that not.
Speaker C:No, no, that's.
Speaker C:But, yeah, I think that is the niceness that Fraser mentioned.
Speaker C:But also a key one, though, is media endorsement.
Speaker C:You've got to get the media on your side, even if.
Speaker C:So you've got to be interesting, but not too interesting.
Speaker C:I think you've got to be naughty, but not too naughty.
Speaker C:If as soon as you're pilloried in the popular press, it's all over.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Again, I think Peter's onto something here, but I feel like the honors and the media endorsement are features.
Speaker B:They're not drivers.
Speaker B:They are features of being a national treasurer.
Speaker B:But I think this issue of sort of not being, well, I'd say non divisive.
Speaker B:I've got the word non partisan written down here, but I think non divisive is what I'm getting at, which is why there's so many actors and musicians and performing arts people there.
Speaker B:You know, they're in a political sphere.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:It's apolitical.
Speaker B:It's not true.
Speaker B:There's nothing tribal about it.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:And that feels so.
Speaker B:I think those sort of controversial people who've, you know, sort of potentially are on their way to national treasure, Dom.
Speaker B:Like Michael Portillo.
Speaker B:That's why it's so hard to get there.
Speaker B:And I think you're right about Tony Ben.
Speaker B:I think only when he became seen as an almost harmless, dare I say, figure of fun could he be a.
Speaker A:National treasure as soon as he can damage the economy with his nuts.
Speaker B:I'll tell you someone else you might think of as a national treasure, Arthur Scargill.
Speaker B:And he certainly one of the most divisive characters from 80s politics.
Speaker B:And I think he's, look, I mean, I'm not presenting him as uncontroversial, but the thing is, you know, you've got to cease to be potentially harmful and I think you have to be out of the game a bit.
Speaker B:And I'll get onto what I think,.
Speaker A:I think he misses some other stuff on the things we talked about anyway.
Speaker B:But I am going to add a couple of.
Speaker B:I want to expand on famous, right, because actually I think it's more important than just famous.
Speaker B:I think you have to be on telly a lot as you, you have to appear as you on telly.
Speaker B:So think of the people who.
Speaker B:There's always on Graham Norton, there's always the young new actor, Tom, you know, Hiddleston or something.
Speaker B:And then there's the old one, isn't.
Speaker B:There's always Judi Dench or someone like that.
Speaker B:You've got to do that kind of thing.
Speaker B:You've got to appear as you, not just as your roles, you know, and if you're a musician, you can't just release hit after hit.
Speaker B:You've got to appear as you.
Speaker B:And then, yeah, you have to be nice.
Speaker B:There's to be a sort of niceness field around you and we'll.
Speaker B:I've got more, I've got a more distinct definition of that.
Speaker B:But, and I, I'm afraid to say, I think there is another criterion which is almost, almost certainly necessary, certainly in Britain, which is you have to be witty, interesting and perceived as either well educated or certainly posh.
Speaker B:I, I think one thing that unites all of these people in National Treasures is that they're seen as sort of, basically sort of, yeah, like, hold on, you may not want it to be.
Speaker C:True, but Bruce Forsyth, he wasn't positive.
Speaker B:I, I do, I, that's why I said the vast majority of them are.
Speaker B:And, and, and I, you know, whether.
Speaker B:I think you're fighting against the tide, if you can be a national treasure who isn't, but it gives you a bloody good head start if you're already posh.
Speaker B:I mean, imagine a non posh version of Stephen Fry.
Speaker B:You literally can't.
Speaker A:Well, hold on, hold on.
Speaker A:Yeah, so I think you've picked up on something there.
Speaker B:But I, but I want to propose an underlying thing that covers all of this.
Speaker A:It could just be a reflection of what we're like in Britain and class and society and.
Speaker B:Well, I don't know, because I think even the US ones, they are at least seen as sort of general.
Speaker B:They're not, they're not working class characters.
Speaker A:Hold on, let.
Speaker B:Meryl Streep, Tom Hanks, Denzel Washington.
Speaker B:None of these are, you know, burly, are they?
Speaker A:Frank Dibner.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Was that his name?
Speaker B:The chimneys guy?
Speaker B:Sorry, Steeplejack.
Speaker A:Yeah, but who was the guy?
Speaker A:Maybe I'm getting mixed.
Speaker A:Maybe it's Frank Dibner, but also who was the guy?
Speaker A:Because I think I probably do mean him.
Speaker A:But who was the guy fixed in his shed?
Speaker B:Fred Dibner.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:That's probably who I mean.
Speaker B:I think he was the guy who knocked down.
Speaker B:Knocked down chimneys.
Speaker B:That's how.
Speaker A:So I'm thinking of the guy who had a workshop and did trains and stuff and he had a shed and had a TV program, you know, James May.
Speaker A:No, no, no, no.
Speaker A:Anyway, there was some bloke like that who.
Speaker A:Can't remember.
Speaker A:Okay, almost certainly.
Speaker A:But hold on, let me, let me just chuck a few names out.
Speaker A:Billy Bragg.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:I mean, I love Billy Bragg, but I, I personally wouldn't expect him to be a national treasure.
Speaker A:Yeah, maybe he's not cuddly enough.
Speaker B:I don't think he is.
Speaker A:I think if we dig down a bit more, we might sort of break through this sort of class posh thing.
Speaker A:I'm not quite so sure on that.
Speaker B:So one.
Speaker C:But.
Speaker B:But absolutely.
Speaker B:The number one thing you need to be is old.
Speaker B:You must be at least 65.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:See, I have this feeling that what we're talking about is the, the ancient and pervasive trope of the wise king or queen.
Speaker B:But the point is that, like going right back to King Hrothgar in Beowulf, the idea of this idealized king who is kind of disinterested in the sense that they are no longer.
Speaker B:They're not going out on adventures.
Speaker B:They're not, they're not, you know, they're ruling with equanimity and with justice.
Speaker B:And, you know, we.
Speaker B:All of the features I think we want from a wise king are things that, you see, you know, you take someone like Aragorn in, you know, in Lord of the Rings or even, you know, the kinds of things that Plato was talking about in the Republic, and it's like, you know, you're looking for these kinds of characteristics and you're certainly sort of nice, or at least in those terms, just, you know, to be well known, highly regarded, to be capable, to be old.
Speaker B:I mean, to me it feels like this is an expression of an ancient, you know, thing that we all want, which is to have these kind of wise rulers.
Speaker C:Little bit of wisdom.
Speaker B:I'm just throwing that out.
Speaker B:I'm certainly not.
Speaker B:I think we can draw a line under that as a theory, but there you go.
Speaker A:I'm not convinced, because let's say David Attenborough, I think he's.
Speaker A:He's been a national treasure.
Speaker B:If he was the King, I think we'd all be.
Speaker A:We'd love that, possibly.
Speaker A:But I mean, if you're talking about slightly almost retired and removed from things and above stuff a bit.
Speaker A:I think maybe that's what you're saying.
Speaker A:I could be wrong, but I think,.
Speaker B:You know, not removed, the opposite.
Speaker B:No, definitely still active.
Speaker B:But what I'm saying is.
Speaker B:I'm just saying that the things that we've all talked about are the same sorts of things that you would want.
Speaker B:Like, there's different things that you would want.
Speaker B:So what I'm saying is that the concept of the old wise ruler, as opposed to the sort of young dashing ruler, the Henry V type, to me, that is a very.
Speaker B:They're very different personalities.
Speaker B:And I think what we're looking for, when we're looking for a leading man, when we're looking for, you know, when we're talking about young Laurence Olivier versus old Laurence Olivier, that is the distinction that we've got there, I think.
Speaker A:I think you're on the wrong track there.
Speaker A:I think it does work with some of them, but I would go back to someone like Boy George or Johnny Rotten, where I don't think King George, I think where it definitely doesn't fit that.
Speaker A:And even if we go back to others.
Speaker B:I agree, I think.
Speaker B:But I think the idea, the canonical, you know, national treasure, I think it feels to me very close to that idea.
Speaker B:Like it's a very different thing, which is why you can't be a young national treasure like that.
Speaker B:That's really why.
Speaker B:Because we're looking for something in that kind of personality.
Speaker B:And I think all of those things adhere or feel like they're in that constellation around that concept.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But anyway, I want to talk about niceness.
Speaker A:So just before you do, because I just wanted to go through that list, which was a yay nay list.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And we can talk about.
Speaker A:I just wanted to examine it, like,.
Speaker B:Just really quickly, why I think Palin vs. Cleese.
Speaker B:I would say Palin appears more much more often or did as himself.
Speaker A:But also Cleese is a bit prickly.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:Palin is nice.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think Rickman vs.
Speaker B:Irons is an interesting.
Speaker B:I think a similar appears as himself.
Speaker B:I think Irons is a bit more reclusive.
Speaker B:Kane vs Stamp actually, I think these.
Speaker A:First three a lot of it's to do with niceness.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So actually let's talk about niceness.
Speaker A:Okay, let's go.
Speaker B:Olga Bial Bruzeska.
Speaker A:Who's that?
Speaker B:Well, she's a psychologist I think.
Speaker B:Anyway, she.
Speaker B:She's the only person I can't speak for her credentials, but she has published a paper introducing the niceness scale which she claims I didn't have time to read the.
Speaker B:So I don't know if this is true, but the abstract claims that this niceness scale is a self reported scale.
Speaker B:So you report how nice you are.
Speaker B:But she says that correlates actually with outcomes with positive outcomes that are associated with niceness and also observed positive behavior.
Speaker B:So this niceness scale is six questions and you have to answer from one almost never to seven almost always.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:And we can work out how nice you are.
Speaker B:So are you ready?
Speaker A:I'm ready.
Speaker B:So Peter, are you ready to answer this?
Speaker B:So basically you just write down a list of numbers.
Speaker B:So you'll be writing down a list of six numbers.
Speaker B:One is almost never, seven is almost always, and four is about half the time.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:When paying in a store, I make sure to use a warm tone of voice or to give sincere thanks to make things pleasant for the person who works there.
Speaker A:I've forgotten the scale.
Speaker B:One was never, seven is always, four is about half.
Speaker B:Two.
Speaker B:I try to write my everyday emails or messages in such a way that the recipient feels warmly treated.
Speaker B:3.
Speaker B:When I sort out an issue in a customer service office, I try to use a warm voice when speaking to people who work there so that they feel I appreciate their work.
Speaker B:4.
Speaker B:I tell people kind things even when I don't have to.
Speaker B:For example, I compliment them.
Speaker B:I personally congratulate them on their successes to make them feel good.
Speaker B:5.
Speaker B:When I talk on the phone for work or when running everyday errands, I try to speak warmly and sympathetically to make the other person's work more pleasant.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And finally, when I see that someone has been rude to a stranger, for example a cashier in a store, I try to be particularly kind and considerate so as to make them feel better.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Add up your numbers and so it's out of 42.
Speaker B:Do you want to predict other people's score?
Speaker B:Should we do that?
Speaker A:Definitely.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker C:Fraser, what's.
Speaker A:I'm still doing the maths.
Speaker A:Hold on.
Speaker A:So I think Peter is a.
Speaker C:Don't just be candid, don't be nice.
Speaker A:No, I think Peter is a 25 and I think you, Nick, are more like a 20.
Speaker B:Interesting.
Speaker B:Peter, what's your predictions?
Speaker C:I predict.
Speaker C:Nick, you're.
Speaker C:You're 35.
Speaker A:What?
Speaker C:And Fraser, I think you might forget yourself.
Speaker C:I think you're probably more of a 25.
Speaker A:Good Lord.
Speaker A:Okay, right.
Speaker B:I predict that fraser is a 20 and that Peter is a 25.
Speaker B:So let's spill the beans.
Speaker A:Well, hold on.
Speaker A:This reminds me of so many of these times when we've done this.
Speaker A:It's just utterly, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah, you're always miles off and you're always.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'm always miles off.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:I always just think I'm much nicer and better at whatever stuff than everyone else does.
Speaker B:So Fraser, what are you in fact?
Speaker A:Well, my self reported score is 31.
Speaker B:31.
Speaker C:So is mine.
Speaker B:Mine is 32.
Speaker B:So maybe we're all nice guys secretly, but.
Speaker B:Yeah, I would have thought, I think, See, I think what you are is you're not nice, but you're thoughtless.
Speaker B:And I think that comes over.
Speaker B:You don't think about the effect on other people because of your personality disorders.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker B:That's not a kind of negative judgment.
Speaker B:Whereas Peter, I think that makes less of an effort to be nice.
Speaker B:I think Peter is extremely helpful and, and great and amazing.
Speaker B:But I wouldn't say he's like nice, particularly some might say, entitled.
Speaker B:I wouldn't, I would never use.
Speaker A:And what about yourself then?
Speaker A:What are your views on yourself?
Speaker A:On, you know.
Speaker B:Well, I, I feel, I do, I, I think I am, I do.
Speaker B:I'm quite ingratiating, I think, with people, particularly like people in shops.
Speaker A:You're quite grating, did you say?
Speaker B:Anyway, it would be.
Speaker B:Sadly, we haven't got data on famous celebrities so we can't compare ourselves with them.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:Yeah, but anyway, I just thought I'd throw that out there, that you know, niceness.
Speaker B:Whether that's quite the same sort of niceness as we, as we see in sort of Judi Dench, I don't know.
Speaker B:But the niceness, it sounds positive.
Speaker B:It's worth saying.
Speaker B:It is not, you know, it's not always totally positive.
Speaker B:Like it's perfectly, you can have perfectly good life without being nice.
Speaker B:You don't have to be nice.
Speaker B:But as it Happens if you want to be a national treasure.
Speaker B:I think what we're saying is that pretty much, pretty much essential.
Speaker B:You really struggle if you're not nice to begin with.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It'd be interesting to all those, you know, let's say we took three off that list that we definitely agreed amongst us they're definitely national treasures.
Speaker A:I'd love to see them doing this and doing the self reported thing and you know, and then coming with scores of 10, 11, 12.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:But I, I just.
Speaker B:So before we sort of move on, given that I think we've, I think we've had a pretty good, given this, a pretty good going over.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So I think Bradley Walsh just, just to make things absolutely clear, I suppose this is the feedback that I'm giving Bradley Walsh in his, in after his interview which is sadly we're not going to offer him the position of national treasurer at this time.
Speaker B:And I would say that it's firstly that he's old, he's not old enough.
Speaker B:I think he's only in mid-60s and he needs to be older than that.
Speaker A:Which he might come back and say well what about Anton Deck?
Speaker B:And you would say, well I'm afraid they're not.
Speaker B:Yeah, they're only on the watch list.
Speaker B:Perceived talent.
Speaker B:I think that, I think we struggling on that score.
Speaker B:He is a nice guy, we'll give him that.
Speaker B:And he's certainly in the public eye perhaps a little bit too much.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:And this is my criterion.
Speaker B:I know but I think sadly he's not quite posh or well educated enough.
Speaker B:He's got a PhD in statistical mechanics.
Speaker B:But, but he's not, he hasn't really.
Speaker B:Well, he might have actually.
Speaker B:But the point.
Speaker B:I think so.
Speaker B:Which means I think he would be a good aging clown.
Speaker B:But I don't think he's got the.
Speaker B:He just hasn't got the gravitas to pull off.
Speaker A:I think gravitas is true, but also I think.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So sadly, you know, anyway, that's my feedback, I think.
Speaker C:But I think my feedback would be,.
Speaker B:Well, keep his name on file.
Speaker C:Yeah, keep his name on file.
Speaker C:I think he can compensate for lack of poshness by getting out there and doing more public advocacy work.
Speaker A:Yeah, maybe I'm not into this whole poshness thing.
Speaker A:Tommy Steele, you know, Michael Caine is not posh.
Speaker A:His whole thing is I'm not posh.
Speaker B:Yeah, okay.
Speaker B:But I think there's.
Speaker A:Look, although he's come posher, I admit.
Speaker B:Yeah, but, but I think it's the.
Speaker B:When I say posh, I mean that as a kind of style.
Speaker B:Benny Hill, not never a national treasure.
Speaker B:I think.
Speaker B:I mean, I love Benny Hill.
Speaker B:Look, look, look.
Speaker B:Let, let.
Speaker B:Just to go back to the list.
Speaker B:David Attenborough.
Speaker B:Posh.
Speaker B:Judi Dench.
Speaker A:Posh.
Speaker B:Maggie Posh.
Speaker A:Of course.
Speaker B:Palin.
Speaker B:Posh.
Speaker B:Fry Posh.
Speaker A:No, but you're skewing.
Speaker B:Emma Thompson.
Speaker B:Posh.
Speaker B:Ian McKellen.
Speaker A:Posh.
Speaker A:You can't just keep reading out these posh names.
Speaker B:No, I'm just saying, look, it helps.
Speaker B:It's a massive help.
Speaker B:You're fighting.
Speaker B:It's an uphill struggle.
Speaker C:If you've seen posh, I think it's sort of helpful.
Speaker C:But not necessary.
Speaker B:No, I don't think any of these things are absolutely necessary.
Speaker A:But anyway, I think we'll have to leave that there.
Speaker B:I'm not saying it ought to be the case.
Speaker B:I'm just saying it is.
Speaker A:I'm just saying you're wrong.
Speaker B:Well, Bradley Walsh tells a different story.
Speaker B:That weak Walsh, he'll never be a national treasure on my watch.
Speaker A:Okay, so question.
Speaker A:I. I don't have a question.
Speaker A:Well, I think we should have.
Speaker B:Sorry, I've actually got.
Speaker B:We've got one more thing to.
Speaker A:Oh, okay.
Speaker B:Yeah, my predictions.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, what were you.
Speaker A:Oh, of course, yeah.
Speaker B:I've got.
Speaker B:I'm.
Speaker B:I'm here to tell people who they should expect to be national treasures.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Because obviously there are people who have not yet made it through virtue, primarily of age.
Speaker B:But you know who I think is.
Speaker A:Starting to look a bit excited over there.
Speaker A:A little bit of hope in his eyes.
Speaker A:But yeah, keep going.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:In the next 10 years, and I think these people are already on the cusp, right.
Speaker B:So I think you can expect to see Davina McCall, Graham Norton, Steven Mangan, Mel Giedroyk and Sue Perkins become national treasures.
Speaker A:Well, I think Graham Norton's there already.
Speaker B:I, maybe I say he's still a little bit too quirky.
Speaker B:Nah, got a little bit.
Speaker A:I think you don't understand the great British public, but keep going.
Speaker B: Then: Speaker A:I think a couple of them already.
Speaker B: There, but yeah, in the: Speaker B:And the people who will be on not Graham Norton's show, but possibly Anton Deck show, because maybe them.
Speaker B:Maybe them.
Speaker B:In the next 20 years, you will.
Speaker B:I predict Adele, Emma Watson, the famous actress, Tom Holland, John Boyega, Florence Pugh, Dua Lipa and Maisie Williams will become natural.
Speaker A:I would add to that some good ones there.
Speaker C:Benedict Cumberbatch, Tom Middleston, Eddie Redmayne.
Speaker B:I think they're.
Speaker B:They're probably the next 10 years.
Speaker B:I reckon they're coming up.
Speaker B:They're quite.
Speaker A:They.
Speaker B:They're getting on.
Speaker B:They're a bit older, aren't they?
Speaker B:A bit older than us.
Speaker C:Yeah, I think.
Speaker C:I think Tom Hardy and Idris Elba won't ever be good.
Speaker B:Yeah, good point too kind of too edgy.
Speaker A:Yeah, they're too edgy now.
Speaker A:Boy George was once extremely.
Speaker C:I think.
Speaker C:I think they're hampered in the same way that.
Speaker B:J.K. rowling.
Speaker C:No, on your list.
Speaker A:What?
Speaker B:The ones who aren't John Cleese or Van Morrison.
Speaker B:Madonna.
Speaker C:No, it was.
Speaker C:Give me the list, give me the list.
Speaker A:Which list?
Speaker B:I've got loads.
Speaker C:The list of your pairs of the.
Speaker A:Yay.
Speaker C:Nay.
Speaker C:Jeremy Irons.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:Because he always plays bad guys well.
Speaker B:So did Alan Rickman but hey, look at him.
Speaker B:We loved him.
Speaker C:He didn't though latterly was playing by the way I think Hapless middle aged men by the way.
Speaker A:I think there's something else that can feed into this as well which is mellowing.
Speaker A:That can be a melody thing.
Speaker A:Yeah, definitely because that definitely plays in with someone like Johnny Rotten and Boy George for example and actually.
Speaker A:And not just that you've mellowed but actually that controversial thing that you were also feels in.
Speaker A:Feeds into it because there's a kind of an integrity there or something there as well I think.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah but hey, but now you can be national show you calm down a bit.
Speaker C:I wonder though I have just quite a sort of question with the hanging.
Speaker C:We can answer this in about 40 years time is will there ever be a space as a national treasure for non.
Speaker C:Non human things like will Chatgpt or Siri ever be considered?
Speaker B:I think you might think Matt, someone like Mickey Mouse is an American national treasure, possibly Ronald McDonald 20 years ago but now he's problematic.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:I think you could point at things like HP Source and Marmite as the closest sort of non human thing to a sort of national treasure.
Speaker C:I was thinking of something a bit more agential to it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Having a bit more robotic national treasures.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay, so I don't have a question but Nick, you've got one there.
Speaker A:What was your question?
Speaker B:Well, there are some people who don't crop up on these lists routinely or perhaps aren't well known enough or you know, or accomplish or something to get on the list.
Speaker B:And so I thought we could perhaps nominate people to be, you know, because just to be accelerated through the process to get the process expert, maybe they.
Speaker A:Can also a part of that acceleration is they can be on a sort of, you know, sort of course as well.
Speaker A:That helps them because there might be some areas where they're failing a bit that they can bring up a bit.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What do you reckon, Nick?
Speaker A:Who.
Speaker B:Yeah, sure.
Speaker B:I, I'm not.
Speaker B:I think Bradley Walsh needs to hold off probably for another, another 10 years and then, then we might think about that process being enacted for him.
Speaker B:Mine is Johnny Ball, who is probably not well known by most people in Britain today, has.
Speaker B:His mistake here really was to drop out of the limelight for the last 30 years.
Speaker B:But Johnny Ball I think is one of the most.
Speaker B:He's integral really to the fact probably that I'm kind of as interested as I am in kind of science and, and tech and that kind of thing.
Speaker B:For those who don't know, he was a extremely charming sort of children's science presenter in the, in the sort of late 70s and early 80s and really enthusiastic personality, really sort of fun TV presenter and is in fact Zoe Ball's dad.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker C:And for those who don't know who Zoe Ball is.
Speaker B:Yeah, actually she, Zoe Ball is well on her way to being a natural treasure too.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Perhaps when she is, she can get her dad in.
Speaker A:He just needs, yeah, so he just needs a bit of pr, I think.
Speaker C:So we got like a sponsorship scheme or accelerated scheme on as now the self elected board of National Treasure Dom.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think so.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But existing national treasures.
Speaker C:We can pair him up with, with, with, with a, with Jane Judi lynch and she can churn the ropes and.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's right, buddy scheme.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Peter, do you have any.
Speaker C:I can't think of any that I'd like to accelerate but I probably can think of a few that I would like to revoke there.
Speaker C:National.
Speaker B:Oh, right, go on then.
Speaker C:Because they're just a bit smug or annoying, I think.
Speaker C:So Some people would say that actress actors like Emma Thompson, Kenneth Branagh said that are unassisted.
Speaker C:I just think they're just a bit too sort of.
Speaker C:Sort of self interested in a way.
Speaker B:Self indulgent.
Speaker C:Self indulgent in a way.
Speaker B:I cannot stand to hear a bad word against Emma Thompson.
Speaker B:I love that.
Speaker A:I can see that with Kenneth Branagh, but less so with Emma Thompson.
Speaker B:Who else is on your crush on her?
Speaker A:Who else is on your hit list?
Speaker C:I think that's All I want to talk about.
Speaker B:You want to boot Ken and Emma off the national treasures list.
Speaker B:Bad luck, buddy boy.
Speaker A:Were you just.
Speaker A:I think you were just holding yourself back from ranting about David Attenborough.
Speaker C:Perhaps not a bad word to say about David Attenborough, but he did run.
Speaker B:Over those skill children that one time.
Speaker A:Yeah, true, actually.
Speaker A:And also the whole cover up.
Speaker B:Right, and that seal clubbing incident.
Speaker A:Yes, exactly.
Speaker B:You never hear about that.
Speaker A:No one talks about that, do they?
Speaker A:For me, it's really obvious.
Speaker A:It's really simple.
Speaker A:It's easy.
Speaker A:Nigel Farage,.
Speaker C:I think he might be.
Speaker B:I think he could do it.
Speaker B:I think.
Speaker B:I think he jinxed it.
Speaker C:I think Michael Farage might get a Nobel Prize one day for his work in Brexit.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:Are you fucking kidding?
Speaker B:Jesus.
Speaker C:I am fucking kidding.
Speaker B:Well, yes, but I mean, actually, I think you.
Speaker B:I think there is.
Speaker B:I mean, lots of people like him.
Speaker A:Surely he will always be too divisive.
Speaker B:You know, Tony, Ben, he's just not.
Speaker A:Nice enough and he's not.
Speaker B:We've got to realize.
Speaker B:I don't think he's got.
Speaker B:I think he's running out of time to pull off a turnaround, let's put it that way.
Speaker A:And actually I was listened on the radio someone this morning saying how good he was at a certain thing, which is basically.
Speaker A:Basically, essentially promoting himself and dividing people or being an opportunist, straight populist.
Speaker A:However, I just don't think he's good enough at something that you should be good at.
Speaker C:He's very good at being him.
Speaker C:And he is exactly what a lot of people want and need.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And there's a lot of visceral hatred out there towards him anyway.
Speaker A:All right, let's stop there.
Speaker A:I enjoyed that.
Speaker C:I think Donald Trump might be a.
Speaker C:Might be a candidate.
Speaker B:I think he could have been before he ran for presidency.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah, maybe.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:All right, we've got to stop it there.
Speaker A:Thanks as always for listening.
Speaker A:My name's Fraser McGrew.
Speaker A:I've been here with Nick Hare and Peter Korkil of Aleph.
Speaker A:Until next time.
Speaker A:Goodbye.
Speaker A:It.
