Made by Hand

Speaker A: 00:00:00

Hello, and welcome to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast produced by me, Fraser McGruer for Aleph Insights. In this series of podcasts, we take a look at interesting topics and discuss what we think they tell us about analysis and decision making. I'm here with Sara Nonu, Nick Hare, and Peter Coghill of Aleph Insights. And this week, we're discussing hand-roasted coffee. Nick, how's your hand-roasted coffee? Is it nice? It must be, really, I can almost smell it from here. Tell us about it. I'm actually drinking Nescafe Gold Blend at the moment, but the other day, I went to my local hipster shop, which living in North London, there's a profusion of, and I needed coffee, so I got some. And it said on the front, hand-roasted coffee. Now, I must be honest, it is very nice coffee. It's not, I'm not, you know, certainly isn't a dig at the coffee, but it did make me think, what on earth do I want my coffee to be hand-roasted for? Or even what that means? Does a man actually put his hand in and rummage around in the coffee? Or is it that, is he loading the roaster? Or is he operating the burner? Is he doing it somehow with a flamethrower? Or, you know, is he just pressing a button which turns the machine on? Or is he in a call, is he in like a kind of office cubicle somewhere and he just clicks on the mouse and the whole thing starts and that's still using his, I don't care. I don't care about any of that. It's the thing, I don't, it makes no difference to me whatsoever. But it is part of a very prevalent trend over the last couple of decades of things becoming artisanal and hand roasted and handmade and sourdough and real ingredients and delicatessen style. And I really, I want to ask what that's all about. There's a real cachet to it, isn't there? Yeah, so I guess one thing we need to nail down is, has there really been a growth in this kind of thing? I don't know. But yeah, I think what we'll talk about is what's with all this artisanal rubbish, basically. Who wants to jump in? Peter, Sarah, how do you feel about it? Are you as irritated by this stuff as Nick is?

Speaker B: 00:02:14

I don't know if I'm as irritated by this stuff as Nick is. I think it would be good to like kind of figure out what artisanal actually means. Because as Nick kind of alluded to, it's often a bit vague and often open for interpretation. So I did have a little look just to be clear on what the definition was and a couple came up. You know, it's high quality and a distinctive product that's made in small quantities by hand or traditional methods. So thinking cheeses, your bakery goods and stuff. And yeah, limited batches in a traditional or non-mechanized way. And yeah, so I think there's more than just artisanal that's often a bit vague in terms of what we think about when it comes to food.

Speaker A: 00:02:59

from the George Orwell novel: 1984

Speaker C: 00:05:16

Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I think the artisanal products are nothing new. It's just how stuff has always used to be made. It's just the marketing engine has seized upon this individualism movement and found a way to market the stuff that always used to be made that way, in a way that's appealed to that. So your bakery, by the end of the street, has always been there. It's always been baking bread, probably in a very similar way. But now they've only just recently started saying, oh, it's now hand-baked in small batches, high quality. It always was that, but now they've actually become a marketing meme that they can leap on. I mean, the cynic in me would say that it's just like the new organic. It's just a new marketing ploy that now that everyone's doing organic, you need something new to differentiate yourself. And this is the new meme that you can jump on.

Speaker A: 00:06:09

ted being bought again in the: 1970

Speaker B: 00:09:46

more or less what's happening. Nick just said a word that I want to call into question. And I think this comes into the fact that artisanal is a bit of a buzzword now. It does have the meaning of usually it is a high quality product. But as Nick noted, there are a lot of companies and big market and large conglomerates that are using that word. He mentioned Domino's. There's also Dunkin' Donuts, Starbucks, and McDonald's. McDonald's, I think they have an artisan chicken burger or something. That's the thing. But you also said something that I want to call to, which is you said stuff that was locally sourced. Now there's actually no definition of what local means. So does that mean it's 10 miles from where it is? A hundred miles? And that's quite across the board. On the same planet, it's probably close enough. Yeah. And there's a lot of terms like that. Natural for one. There's actually no standard of what natural means. Or even what handmade means. Or what handmade means. What craft means. Free range. It's hard to actually verify what people mean by that. Organic. If a product is organic, does that mean it's fully organic or it's made partially with organic materials? And how much of that is needed to say it's organic? So there's a lot of terms when it comes to food. So organic has been recently

Speaker C: 00:11:07

standardized in order for something to be marketed as organic. Their rules are quite defined. But you're quite right, Sarah, that these new terms, the handmade, the handcrafted, the artisanal, there's a vacuum of any kind of standardization of terminology here and standards. So that's the play space of marketeers is to make you buy stuff. It's using and bending the meaning of words. I don't know if there's an interesting direction to go in. But it seems to me that there

Speaker A: 00:11:35

are certain areas, certain products that lend themselves to being artisanally made. So for example, you know, coffee, for example, bread. And then, you know, even books looking behind me, you know, so even books, there's a value in having those. Yeah, exactly. But I wonder what would not or what would it be great? What about a car? An artisanal car? Well, I have a thought experiment for you. Yes. Would you buy an artisanal saucepan? Would you buy artisanal paracetamol?

Speaker C: 00:12:08

Yeah. Would you buy an artisanal computer? Or an artisanal safety helmet? What about an artisanal

Speaker A: 00:12:15

podcast? Yeah, I think I think so. So I think there is clearly it is not purely branding, because there is something to do with the types of goods. So what is it? I think we're edging towards a theory of artisanalness. So why does it relate to some things, but not so some things you want to be manufactured, you want to be standardized? Well, I do have a theory, but I'm not sure I haven't made it. I haven't really, this hasn't been thrashed out on the artisanal anvil of my idea smithy yet. But I have this theory that it is about the, if you track the kinds of goods that people spend most of their money on, and think about climbing up Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you know, you start with things that are sort of very basic goods like shelter, and you move towards, in general, and the way that economies have evolved is has been towards manufactured goods. manufactured goods really benefit from being made in a factory, by and large, you know, you want a teapot that's just like all the other teapots and won't fall apart, by and large, right, nails, Adam Smith use the example of pins, you know, things that are much more efficiently and probably produced to a higher quality, or at least can be produced to higher quality in a factory. But as you progress beyond the sort of manufacturing stage, you are producing goods that are much more about services and experiences. And, and I think we, even though we're happy with mass produced goods, there is something in the nature of an experience, and I haven't quite worked it out yet, whether it's someone cooking for you, someone cutting your hair, someone washing your car, where you want to feel that that's a service that they're doing for you. And not, you're not just a one of many, you know, things that has been churned out of a factory. That's, I think that I, that would be my theory about what can be artisanal, or what we want to be artisanal, as if it's something that's a bit more like an experience, you know, be it eating a loaf of bread, and not like a thing that we buy and use. I don't think it's a complete theory, but it's a

Speaker B: 00:14:20

starting point. I did find a poll, I believe it's called the Harris Poll study on this. And it looked at also the generational divide. So millennials are more inclined to want artisanal crafted products, you know, they like to express their individuality, have one offs, one of a kind things, as well as supporting small businesses and boomers and above, were pretty much didn't buy into it. So I think that kind of supports in what you're saying in terms of, you know, there are things that we do like that we want to have that individual experience. I know that I definitely like artisanal products and one of a kind things. And that can often be a bit more expensive, but it's nice to have those

Speaker A: 00:15:04

you're nice. Yeah. It's interesting you said that actually, because that that reminds me of a document. I mean, what we're saying is there, there is a signaling element. I mean, there's a quality element, which I think we can touch on is, is, is all those sorts of goods actually better if they're artisanal. We can argue about that. But there is also a signaling element. And it reminds me of a documentary I saw about billionaires. And obviously, if you're a billionaire, you no longer care about the price of anything, cost is not an issue. What you are trying to do is find something which is really hard to get, which is essentially unique. Yeah, it's a similar kind of thing, really, you know, if your loaf of bread is handmade, nobody else can have a loaf of bread like that. Let's turn this on itself. We've been bit down apart from us. We've been a bit down on art, because also we'd be we don't want to put out work all those artisans. Right. So just to be specific, I am not down on artisanal products. I'm down on artisanal branding. Yeah. And I'm

Speaker B: 00:15:59

down on large conglomerates using artisanal and taking away the actual value from the word.

Speaker A: 00:16:04

Okay, right. So that's quite a bit of a bit of a tricky sort of needle to thread, isn't it?

Speaker B: 00:16:11

But anyway, Sarah, what artisanal stuff do you like? Ceramics. I really like handmade ceramics, bowls, platters. I'm very much into that. I don't know why, but I am. And artwork. I'm very into like going when we travel, I like to go to local galleries, or little art stores and purchase something local that's made from someone that's just in the village to take home with me. I don't like to buy mass produced artworks or ceramics. So art and ceramics. Okay. What about on the food side of things? I do like a lot of food. Most probably I would say bread. I like to buy like nice loaves of bread because we don't eat a lot of it. Cheeses and meats. Okay. Oh, and I do like a good coffee. Like I'll go to find a little coffee shop instead of like a Starbucks

Speaker A: 00:17:03

or a Costa. Gotcha. Okay. That's quite an artisanally rich life. It sounds like so far. You just you're fulfilling all these millennial sort of tropes that we've got.

Speaker B: 00:17:16

Like I really can relate to like the studies and stuff in terms of saying like millennials do this because I do do this. But in saying that, like I buy one loaf of artisanal bread, maybe a fortnight, and I will get a coffee when I go out, which is like maybe once or twice a week, particularly with lockdown. Hardly ever. Yeah. And I only buy these these artworks and things when I travel. Yeah, I can't do much of at the moment and ceramics. I'm trying to save for it

Speaker A: 00:17:48

by half. So I'm definitely not buying them. Peter, what about you? Any artisanal stuff in your life?

Speaker C: 00:17:53

No, no, no, I don't like stuff as we've covered before. But by and large, I'm pretty happy with my long life white bread with margarine spread. Thumbs up, Peter. I'm quite happy with that. Actually, I make my own bread. Well, actually, my bread maker makes my own bread. So it's treading a fine line. I think that straight away gives you a hundred points in the artisanal stuff.

Speaker B: 00:18:14

Yeah. Does that not mean that like that's artisanal? Is that some not form of a maybe

Speaker C: 00:18:19

not artisanal, but you know, especially you are an artisan. I am an artisan, yeah. You can't buy my bread anywhere because I don't sell it. So, yeah, yeah, I don't. I'm really not swept up with any artisanal product. Now, save for the kind of where it is genuinely a better product or an interesting product. And I'm thinking the world of like craft beer, where without the sort of artisanal craft beer world, we wouldn't have good beer in the world. We'd just all be drinking Carlsberg and it would be a sad place. That sort of is where I can forgive the marketing is where it goes hand in hand with actually a developing new set of products, a new market. Yeah, yeah. That's that. That's all. That's all. That's quite. Yeah. I like those. I like beer.

Speaker A: 00:19:12

Yeah. Nick? Yeah, same really. Actually, you know, I do like nice food and beer as well. And I, you know, during one of many billions of people who cultured my own sourdough starter during lockdown and I brew my own beer, admittedly, from a kit. But if I was that motivated, I could keep the yeast going. So I like all of those things. I would also include music. I, you know, I'm not alone in finding modern, heavily produced pop music utterly horrendous. And, you know, I like or I like the music with the imperfections, you know, from before, before they had quantized, you know, drum tracks and people made mistakes and those kinds of things. So I think it sort of boils down to, I think there's one of the things that Sarah's touching on is this sort of Japanese wabby sabby type aesthetic where, you know, things are different and imperfect and that makes them intrinsically nice. There's something nice about that. And I think this is this is where we get onto this sort of intrinsic value. I remember we had a, we did a podcast a while back about about whiskey, about whether or not if something was chemically identical, but one whiskey had been owned by, you know, Quinston Churchill, would that whiskey somehow be better? And I think Peter took the view that definitely not. And I took the view that will definitely yes. And I think something's being handmade by someone who cares about it. And that's a key thing, like someone who's motivated to make it because they like the thing and they want to make a nice thing, and not because they want to make a profit, you know, like a marketing person does that where they actually do that, like they're made, they started a bakery because they love bread rather than they started a bakery because they want to make money and bread is the thing they chose, I think does make it just better, you know? So yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was just looking through just seeing if there's anything because the stuff that you went through there, Sarah. I think also, what is it? Most of it, I can't be bothered. Well, now you've just moved to Lincolnshire. So I'm hoping that you will find yourself a local butcher who makes their own haslet. Because haslet is one of the finest foods in Britain. And it's very little known about it. Oh, God, you're the worst Lincolnshire man I've ever met. Haslet is basically, you know, Lincolnshire sausage. Yes. It's basically like a giant round Lincolnshire sausage that's pre cooked. And as far as I'm aware, pre cooked, when it's cooked, you can eat it cold, you just buy it. It's like imagine that Lincolnshire sausage cross between a Lincolnshire sausage and a ham, right? So it's a big lump of Lincolnshire sausage meat that is cooked. So you can take it home and cut a slice off it and stick it in your sandwich. But it's particularly good sliced, obviously, but fried a little bit first. Excellent with brown sauce. I think that can't be produced in factories because no one buys it. Only people in Lincolnshire, mainly me, buy haslet. But you must go and find yourself some haslet. But yeah, sorry, apart from that, carry on. Well, I'm gonna look that up. But actually, most of the stuff you were saying, actually, I've got another bugbear, which I think I've mentioned before, which is coffee. That does my bloody head in how people bang on about coffee. It's just bloody coffee. I know. I found in among all the horrible marketing things I found, there's a Costa. Costa says, coffee is an art and our baristas are artisans. Learn about the passion and precision that goes into each cup. Have you ever been in a Costa? Passion and precision. They're good. I mean, they're not criticizing Costa. I like their coffee, but they're not you wouldn't describe their people who work there as passionate. But I remember a few years ago, I was in I rarely drink coffee. But I was in central London. I was at my job and had popped out to have a cup of coffee. And the nearest place was this artisanal place. And with this classic sort of owner manager there, who looks straight out, you know, he looked like he ran a cereal shop on Brick Lane, right? He that's the full on hipster. And I asked him if he could do me a decaf coffee. And I think maybe that's not a thing. I don't know. But he looked at me as if I just spat in one of his coffee. And, and I just want to say, what do you think you're making here, mate? Is this Fabergé eggs or something? It's just bloody coffee. Anyway, lighten up Boomer. Yeah,

Speaker C: 00:23:31

I was just gonna I was gonna say, I was gonna explore. I got a feeling I got prediction. Yeah. That the sort of the, the sort of marketing vogue is somewhat cyclical. And within a few years, maybe, maybe a couple of decades, there'll be a return a resurgence of the factory made, being a marketing, marketing device for indicating or trying to indicate quality and desirability in a product. And I'm thinking back to sort of Marjorie, let's use margarine as a as an example, where you can't actually buy margarine being marketed as margarine anymore. It's all called like, something like butter, I can't believe it's not butter, or flora butterly. And the floor is particularly a painful example. So the flora butterly 100% plant goodness is what's written on it. Basically, it is vegetable oil, but it's margarine, it's turned into margarine. So I'm like, because the adverts are the sort of 40s, 50s, 60s are kind of quite charming, they, they make a big thing about the standardization of their product being a desirable thing, it being high quality, because it's quality controlled it, it being fresh, because it comes in a sealed can. So they make they make they make a big thing about the factory, the factory made

Speaker A: 00:24:49

element of it being a good marker of quality. Yeah, in fact, I've got a margarine advert in front of me from what looks like the possibly the 40s or 50s. And it says, every step in the process of manufacturers watched with great care, not a single hand touches it until you open the package. It's the total opposite of handmade. Yeah, I wish you'd carried on as you said that every single order is watched with great hair. That's what you were initially saying. But um, but we need to stop there. We need to finish up before we do is anything. Yeah, anything anyone wants to pipe up with something that I think I think it may be worth mentioning a guy, a very interesting guy called Venkatesh Rao, who I think we've mentioned before, he's got a blog called ribbon farm, but he's very good at nailing these sort of slightly amorphous concepts that once you read about them, you think, yes, that is a thing. And he's got this phrase, which he calls premium mediocre. And he said, this is kind of, I suppose, at the marketing end, but it says, premium mediocre is the finest bottle of wine at Olive Garden, which I guess is a sort of American equivalent of something like ask. Premium mediocre is cupcakes and froyo. It's truffle oil on anything. Extra legroom seats in economy, cruise ships, artisan pizza, Game of Thrones and the Bellagio. And he says, premium mediocre is food that Instagram is better than it tastes. I think that's sort of what we're talking about. You know, all of these companies releasing an artisan chicken burger is sort of, you know, attempting to create a premium brand out of what can never be a premium brand. So I thought I'd point that out because I think it's very close to what we're discussing. Absolutely. Okay, we'll stop there. Thank you, as always, for listening to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast. Is it going to be hand edited? I was about to come in with some great lines here. I hope you've enjoyed your slow roasted, handcrafted, aged, you know. Half-baked podcast. Thank you, as always, for listening to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast. I'm Fraser McGruer. We've been here with Sara Nonu, Peter Coghill, and Nick Hare of Aleph Insights. Until next time, goodbye.