Holidays

Speaker A: 00:00:00

Hello and welcome to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast produced by me, Fraser McGruer for Aleph Insights. In this series of podcasts, we take a look at interesting topics and discuss what we think they tell us about analysis and decision making. I'm here with Nick Hare, Chris Wragg, and Jordan Fermanis of Aleph Insights. And this week we're discussing holidays.

Speaker B: 00:00:25

Nick, have you been on holiday or something? What's that? What's going on? No, no, it's the opposite really. It's up here in this hemisphere, it's actually the depth of winter. We've got a cold spell and it's been multiple jumpers. And as the frost reaches its rimey fingers up the windowpane and the London drizzle is, you know, highlighted in the purple night. I find myself reflecting on last year's holidays with a kind of warm glow. Yeah, I just feel sad now, but keep going. Yeah. Well, so anyway, I actually we had a massive holiday extravaganza last year because we hadn't had holidays for ages because of Covid. Remember that? Anyway, we had a US road trip, which was amazing. We went to Rome for a week and we also spent a week in France in the summer. But what I noticed was that I definitely remember at the time the French holiday was incredibly relaxing. We had a swimming pool, you know, we had barbecues. We went to the lake and did swimming and we went out in the evening and there's lots of sitting about and chatting and eating nice food and going to restaurants and family and everything. But my memories of that holiday are minuscule. I've got hardly very few memories of things that happened. Whereas Rome, which was the same length of time, absolutely chock full of memories. But at the time, you know, there's a lot of kind of doing stuff. There's a lot of going out and walking and day trips and travel. And I know what this podcast is going to be about now, but keep going. Yeah. Yeah. So the the but the thing is that subjectively I had let's say I was more relaxed and I was enjoying myself in a more physical way in the in the on the French holiday with the board games and the relaxation. But the memories that I've got definitely favour Rome. So the question is, what should we be optimising when we're designing a holiday? Should we should we design it so that the person on holiday is having a great time or should we design it so that the person in the future who's looking back. Future Nick. Future Nick looking out of his window at the London evening has more of a warm glow about that holiday. Yeah, that's the question we want to poke

Speaker A: 00:02:43

into, I think. I like that because I thought that because I think we can almost skip straight to it because got two words for you. Go on. Information game. What what is going on? Because, I mean, that's what it is about, right? That's why you remember the stuff where because I think you go to France fairly regularly, probably the same place. It's all the same. You're not learning anything new, right? Really. You're just having a lovely, relaxing time, whereas in Rome, where I suspect you haven't been as often, as you said, is quite busy doing lots of stuff. So you're learning stuff and your senses are absorbing stuff all the time. So therefore you get more information and therefore you remember it. Well, it's kind of a formative year sort of.

Speaker B: 00:03:18

It's definitely a viable theory about what makes you remember more things. Yeah. But it's not necessarily answering the question of is it better to collect memories or is it better to have a have a sort of nice, relaxing time? Exactly. And I think that's what's more interesting maybe on

Speaker A: 00:03:34

this is that designing your holiday. You want a bit of you want to relax because, you know, it would be more memorable if you went on an arduous trip through the desert and so on. And it might be unpleasant, probably lose a few family members. Rattlesnakes. Rattlesnakes. Yeah. But it wouldn't be very relaxing. So, yeah, we need to design the perfect holiday. That's what we're designing here. I think we're designing the perfect Aleph holiday, aren't we? Yeah. Or the perfect cognitive engineering holiday. Who wants to jump in? Well, yeah, I was just going to say I think it's worth

Speaker C: 00:04:03

sort of unpicking that idea of memory and also looking at why, you know, relaxation, what different things we get out of relaxation and things that are memorable. So sort of thinking about, you know, the different kinds of how memory works or at least models of how memory works. There's obviously, you know, there's working memory, which is your sort of short term memory. There's your knowledge of the world around you and how it works, your sort of semantic memory. And then what we're talking about here is episodic memory. Like, can you recall episodes within your life? And when you think about the different aspects of how memory works, there are sort of three phases of that. There's the encoding of the memory in the first place when you lay it down. So that's like meeting somebody and they give you a name and you go, OK, that's Fraser McGruer. Then obviously at some point you have to store that memory over a period of time and then you have to recall it when you next meet Fraser McGruer. It's like, OK, there's Fraser, that's Fraser McGruer and you retrieve them, retrieve the memory. But the point is here, I think the holiday itself is at the encoding phase, right? It's like you're on your holiday, that's where you lay down the memories, you subsequently retrieve them on a dark and misty London night, right? But what is it that makes things memorable when they're encoded? And as you were saying, it's about their sort of unusualness, right? So if you think about going on a routine walk, right, that you always do, you probably won't remember it. But if there were a giant giraffe in the middle of your walk, you would remember that occasion specifically. But the other element is emotional, the emotional aspect of memory. So, you know, it's unusual, but also you're more likely to remember when things are emotional. And that's why, you know, so you get the question, where were you when Kennedy died? You know, everybody remembers. We obviously don't because we weren't alive. September the 11th. September the 11th, exactly. Queen dying, Princess Diana, yeah. So everybody remembers those things because there's an emotional jolt and they're unusual. But isn't the unusual stuff and the emotion always connected? No? Well, not if it's benignly unusual. So that's just new information. But equally, you know, you might have a sort of, you know, regular trauma that you remember because it was emotional, even though it occurred on a number of occasions and it wasn't novel. But the point is, you know, what you're trying to do is think about if you want to generate memory, how you can create that unusualness and that emotional aspect, right, could be positive emotions as well, without it being stressful and working against the relaxation component. So the reason we don't, you know, relaxation is about the absence of stress, anxiety, emotions like anger and so on. And it's, you know, a psychological state that is about being free from anxiety. Well, if you put yourself in an unusual environment and one which is emotional, maybe you're not free from anxiety. So you've got this definite sort of, you know, idea, sort of perfectly encapsulated by this idea of the relaxing holiday or the memorable holiday. And it sort of gets to the crux of

Speaker A: 00:07:49

something quite, quite fundamental. And really briefly, Chris, sorry, I wasn't listening as properly as I should have at the beginning when you were talking about the different kinds of memory. And one of them you mentioned episodic. And sorry, can you just go over those really

Speaker C: 00:08:01

briefly again? Yeah. So there's working memory, which is like somebody gives you a 10 digit number that you've got to type into something. There's semantic memory, which is more about, you know, your memory of, for example, things like language, but also like, oh, there's a door, I know you open the handle, don't open the door, you know. And then episodic memory is more about this element of discrete periods and you're playing through in your head like a little,

Speaker A: 00:08:28

you know, cine film. Okay, nice. Yeah. So this is also, it's about one's aim, right? What does one want from a holiday, right? And what's the balance between, you know, relaxing and remembering it, right? So I feel we're getting somewhere. And it makes me think of some of my more memorable holidays. Jordan, anything to add at this point?

Speaker D: 00:08:48

Yeah, I was looking at some of the, I guess, cognitive processes that can occur when you're on a holiday, which I guess feeds into what Chris was talking about with those different types of memories. But the way that I guess we, there's this idea that before a holiday, in the anticipation of a holiday and the build up to it, that everything will kind of, maybe the things that are going wrong in your normal life will be fixed by going on a holiday, or, you know, like a holiday is sort of going to bring you a bit of an escape from your normal life. There's also this idea, I guess, of when you look back on a holiday with rose-coloured glasses, it can feel, the memories can feel stronger and more animated and more positive than the actual experience was of being on a holiday. And then there's also, I guess, a paradox of when you're on holiday, sometimes you long for home as well. And you actually like that kind of that build up and the excitement. And then when you finally get there, you actually realise, oh, I actually, I miss my life at home. I miss my sleeping in my own bed and all these sorts of things. And that can also, I guess, reflect itself back on the memories you

Speaker A: 00:10:09

have of that time. Yeah. By the way, no other animals, apart from us, take holidays, do they?

Speaker B: 00:10:14

Or do they? I don't, I don't know. Well, well, hang on. We might touch on what the evolutionary rationale is for holidays, because there are some plausible ones. But just before you come in,

Speaker A: 00:10:25

because I sometimes feel there's a really obvious question to be asked here, right, about ourselves. And usually that might be an end question. But I think it's also sometimes useful to relate what's your most memorable holiday, that kind of thing. It's sometimes really useful to bring it in the beginning or middle of an episode. We might do that. I don't know. But anyway, Nick, keep going.

Speaker B: 00:10:41

s mentioned here in Don et al: 2011

Speaker A: 00:14:28

feeling happy, or satisfied, whatever it might have been, is that just a temporary thing?

Speaker B: 00:14:33

And well, I think this is to do with those two types of measurement. What I'm saying is that if you ask people, how, you know, how, how would you rate your life? It's the fact they've been on holiday or not, in the last six months doesn't have that much of a difference. You know, so but they found, there's a study by Nao Jin, which found that if people had a really relaxed holiday, so it's like super ultra relaxing, that is correlated with a happiness boost, but only for about two weeks. And the most interesting thing, I think, which he found, sorry, he or she, I don't actually know who Nao Jin is, but is that the length of stay is not a predictor of post trip happiness. Must be a minimum. So well, they sort of, so I think that, I don't know, it ties in more with that sense of actually, it's the experience and not the, it's the intense experience things, rather than the, you know, having downtime for a long time. So you, it's better to go and do some, you know, variety of different memorable things than it is to have two weeks off work and just get a massage every day. Yeah, right. So which is really intriguing. So a three day holiday will have, could have a lasting, more lasting boost on your happiness than a three week long holiday, if you were just lying on a beach for three weeks. Yeah. Now you, yeah. I mean, that's, as I said, that's what the evidence suggests. So I think that the upshot is that holidays probably aren't going to be that significant, that duration isn't as important, and that positive experiences are important. So that's edging towards telling us how we should, you know,

Speaker A: 00:16:18

how we should think about designing a holiday. Okay. Okay. So I think we need to stay focused on that question at some point, how to design a holiday. And I think we need to design one at the

Speaker C: 00:16:28

end of this. Chris? Well, I was just sort of interested because that feels counterintuitive to me, the duration point, because, but I wonder whether that's because there are large individual differences. And so, you know, if you look at the population at large, there's not an optimal amount of time, but each individual may have their own optimum and that's really well scattered. Because I definitely, when I go on holiday, know what my optimal, you know, Which is? About five to nine days. So I don't like going away for three weeks. I wouldn't go away for three weeks. If you go away for two days, you know, it's not, it's not long enough. But I know people who would always go on at least a two week summer holiday, bang, block. My wife and I, amongst the

Speaker A: 00:17:22

many things about which we argue, one of them is holiday length. And every year we have, we start at the same point as if we'd never had the argument before, which is I always want to go for two weeks, and she wants to go for one week. It's always the same, every time. And also she always

Speaker B: 00:17:35

wants to go to bloody Cornwall. There is evidence that the sort of what you remember from holiday falls off very sharply after about a week, if it's just staying in one place all day. Presumably because it becomes more routine. Exactly. Yeah. But a week actually is a bit of a sweet spot.

Speaker C: 00:17:49

Tour. And yeah, went away for: 1613

Speaker A: 00:19:30

Pilgrimage has a very, even outside of religious stuff, pilgrimage has a very specific meaning that's more about sort of self-discovery, which links into this. But I dare say that lots of

Speaker C: 00:19:42

, yeah. Well, Bournemouth, in: 1861

Speaker A: 00:20:49

And by the way, a lovely unintended side effect for photographers in the 20th, what century, Ian? 21st? Yeah. Thank you. A century like myself, which is I get to go off and photograph lovely underclass degradation at these places in decline. So it's brilliant.

Speaker C: 00:21:04

The whole, well, and back again to Margate, you know, Margate on the up again. Yeah, absolutely. But anyway, yeah. So that idea that it is about a break from work, but about going outside of your normal atmosphere.

Speaker A: 00:21:21

Listen, we're further along than I wanted. I'm impatient to ask this question, but go, Nick.

Speaker B: 00:21:25

Yeah, well, it's just, I think this touches on, we talked about travelling and that being a thing, and road trips and stuff. There is, just worth mentioning that there is also an evolutionary reason why you might want to travel. And it just comes from, you know, being hunter gatherers. And it's a bit like the theory that exercise makes you happy because your body thinks that it's escaped from a threat. Which is quite an interesting one. And I think it's the set that I think we have a deep seated primary need to travel, to go to places because it serves so many useful purposes. If you're, you know, if you're a hunter gatherer, you're gathering information about, you know, opportunities and you can't just stay in one place. So I think that that explains why, you know, just travelling at all has some sort of positive effect. But the other thing I want to mention, because it's really important in understanding our recollections of experiences, is this peak end rule. Which is this really weird finding. Peak end rule? The peak end rule. It's a very weird finding from cognitive psychology. Kahneman writes again quite a lot about it. But it seems to be the case that people don't really remember the experiences they have. That obviously they remember the memories they have. And those memories don't do a very good job of capturing the experience. So the classic experiment for this is that you put people in two conditions. Condition A, condition B. Condition A, they put their hand in really, really uncomfortably cold water for, you know, a minute, and then they take it out. Condition B, they put their hand in uncomfortably cold water for a minute. But then the water is gradually warmed up. So that, you know, over the course of the next minute, so that at the end, it's not uncomfortable. Right? Now, you would think, well, that is just the first experience. But with a bit of extra discomfort, it would be better to take your hand out and immediately end the discomfort than to have keep it in there while the water warms up. Not so. Right? It turns out that people when asked which experience they'd like to repeat, people would rather repeat the one where they actually were submerged for longer, but the water gradually warmed up. So people's memories are not encoding the pleasure or displeasure of an experience properly. What they do is they use this shortcut, which is called the Peak End Rule, which is how bad was the worst thing in that experience? Or how good in the context of a positive experience? And how did it end? If it ended well? Brilliant. Thumbs up to that experience. It's like the reverse of being a lobster really, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. The reverse lobster theory. But the implication for a holiday is that the end of the holiday is going to make a big difference. How we encode the experience of it ending, but also the high, whatever the best bit of that holiday is. That's also how we can remember it. So if we're looking, if we've come to the conclusion that we sort of want to form some good memories, then to make them good, we've got to make sure we get that right. We've got to make sure the best bit is really good and that the end is good. And the duration doesn't really matter. And again, that reinforces that finding from earlier. But the really interesting thing about this is that, you know, as Kahneman says, there's basically an experiencing self and a remembering self. And they have totally different experiences. And he says, we are the remembering self, right? You might think you're the experiencing self. The person I'm talking to, you, you're the remembering self. Even minute to minute. If I asked you what happened two minutes ago, I'd be speaking to the remembering self. But the experiencing self is having a whole different time. Your experiencing self is experiencing things in a way that basically your remembering self just doesn't know about. And that is kind of spooky. But only in the moment, right? Yeah, right.

Speaker A: 00:25:31

But actually the remembering self is the experiencing self, but in a delay. Is that right?

Speaker B: 00:25:38

Well, no. The point is that they want different things out of life. No, but the memorable one,

Speaker A: 00:25:43

the remembering self must be based, it's based on the experience, experiences of the experience

Speaker B: 00:25:48

Yeah, but like distorted and filtered. Yeah. In a way that you're experiencing self. Basically, your remembering self would like to put your experiencing self through unpleasant situations, because it gets some good memories out of the end. And that's

Speaker C: 00:26:03

really weird. I mean, this totally tallies with personal experience, actually, because I always come back from holidays. And you know, a few months later, I go, oh, that was a brilliant holiday. And my wife always says, really, you seemed really stressed while you were there, you know, children at the airport or whatever. So that does seem to to tally with somebody else's objective memory of my experiencing self. Yeah.

Speaker A: 00:26:34

Sorry, I wanted to ask this much earlier. But I do want to ask this now, which is holidays, your best ever holiday, right? Not best ever, give me a memorable one. I mean, okay, I know we're talking around those points anyway. But I want an example one. And maybe we've got a little time to examine that briefly. But then we need to set our minds to this task. Like, yeah, let's design a holiday. Does anyone want to kick off with their best holiday or one of their best? I've got a couple straight away. Anybody? I think my American road trip last year

Speaker B: 00:27:01

is up there. Why was it so good? It looked great from the photos. Well, the whole family there, well, us and the two kids. They're old enough now that we don't have to kind of worry moment to moment about looking after them, you know, they can sort of send them off to buy guns. You don't need to. Yeah, exactly. The totally new environment. I've been to the US several times, but never been to the south. This was a road trip to the south. Variety, the you know, the environment changes. It's all the US. And if you didn't live in the US, and you weren't used to it, you might think it was all similar. But of course, if anyone who's been around the US knows that it's totally different. It can change a lot in a few hundred miles. And, and yeah, so we you know, we went to all kinds of different environments, different sort of, you know, types of cities, different people, different food. And yeah, absolutely billions of memories.

Speaker A: 00:27:52

Lots of really fun memories. What went wrong? Anything? Give me you know, anything went wrong?

Speaker B: 00:27:56

Unfortunately, no. I know that would have been that would have been good. But it didn't really, we didn't have any amusing breakdowns. We didn't encounter any violent lunatics. In fact, the people in the south are, as they're supposed to be on the on the propaganda posters, really friendly people. So yeah, I think the probably the worst experience was Ross. Ross didn't know what, what buffalo chicken sauce was. And she ordered some and it was way too

Speaker A: 00:28:25

spicy for us. Okay. Yeah, I think as as bad things go, that's not too bad. Yeah. Anyone

Speaker D: 00:28:31

else want to jump in? Jordan? Chris? Yeah, I think my trip to India in my early 20s was a was one it was just like a sensory overload for anyone that's been to India probably understands that. And just culturally, very different to what I was expecting, I think quite challenging in a lot of ways. So I think that's what made it memorable for me. Okay. And what I mean, give me one thing, one stand out moment. Just lots of things that going wrong, I think like things unexpected things that I thought would just be, you know, even catching a train or finding something to eat, or everything felt just a bit difficult and not the way I was used to it. Sure. Working, which was probably a good thing to experience at an early age. Yeah, that's what I

Speaker A: 00:29:17

like when I go camping, actually, this isn't my example. But when you go camping, everything's a little bit of a task. And I really enjoy cooking wherever I am. But when it's camping, it's a real, right, it's, it's a task that I've got to do. And it's quite difficult. I really

Speaker C: 00:29:29

enjoy solve problems. Yeah, exactly. Chris? Well, I was just thinking about this. And it was sort of difficult to divide out. But I realised something in thinking about this, this question. So the sort of three candidates that came to mind were holiday, my wife and I had when she was first pregnant when we went to Morocco, a Californian road trip, we went on before we had children. But then our holiday last summer to southern Germany, the Black Forest, and Lake Constance, and so on. And what all of those holidays had in common, is that they were multi destination. Yeah, sort of, you know, move from one place to another, spend a few days in a place, learn about it a little bit, and then move on to the to the next place. So I think that is that's a little finding for me about designing holidays is actually, if you go away, it's a you can sustain the duration. But if you're moving somewhere new, each time you get that novelty in the memory experience, but you're still on still on holiday. Yeah, I think similar to me, actually,

Speaker A: 00:30:39

as you talk it through. So for me, as a couple, which is this summer just gone by, we all had great summers, by the way, didn't we? Except from poor Jordan. We've just been to Australia. Yeah, well, yeah, exactly. And we, yeah, we went to the Italian lakes, but we drove all the way there. It's quite a long way. And so they definitely had that element of moving. But also whilst we were there, we moved around a lot. And, and, and also actually, probably my one of the best things is my poor son, Alistair, he kept falling off his bike, it wasn't always his fault. But he kept ended up all every day with like a new gash on his knee and gashes upon gashes. And we've got all because as you know, I'm a hardcore documentary photographer. So I've got photos of the whole lot and films and video of him crying and stuff. And you're terribly upset. Tell me how you feel. And he admitted those were the best bits. And we all agreed that the best bits were Alistair falling off his bike and the blood and so on. But yeah, no, probably the best one was just pre kids. My wife and I, we went on a cycling holiday in the Loire Valley. And it was a total disaster. I mean, it was raining all the time. My wife kept falling off her bike. Now we know where Alistair gets it from. And terrible hay fever. But also we were sort of, you know, it was, we would go to sleep in the rain, we would cycle in the rain, we would pack things up in the rain, and just rain, rain, rain, rain, rain. And me and my wife had some of the biggest arguments we've ever had. And, but it was mainly because you keep pushing people off their bike. Yeah. But it was just such a wonderful holiday. And we look back and go and even sort of tantrums from me go, I'm a total disaster as a human being for saying we should do this holiday and da, da, da, da. Sounds like you had a bit of, you know, personal realisation. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it was wonderful. Wonderful. Okay, look, we super quick, we need to wrap this up. Perfect holiday. Let's design it. Yeah, well, I'll suggest something. Go on. Road trip. Yeah, road trip. Nice. Okay, so all right, we're doing this. Okay, so we're all going on a Cognitive Engineering road trip. Okay,

Speaker B: 00:32:36

where should we go? Where are we going? Well, where do we get the most experiences for a day? Where do we get the shortest amount of geography? Well, that's a good point. Yeah.

Speaker C: 00:32:44

So, I mean, if you look at where people go on holiday in Britain, Spain is most popular, USA next, France, Italy, Greece, Portugal, Germany, Australia, Canada, Turkey. So that could be a short list based on what other people have found interesting. You know.

Speaker A: 00:33:04

Well, knowing what we know about length of holiday, how that's not so important, we want to save a bit of cash, right? So therefore, let's not make it too long to make it close. But it needs to be sufficiently exotic. So we might be talking Morocco. Well, I see what I was going

Speaker B: 00:33:16

to suggest. I don't at the risk of looking a bit Eurasia centric. Yeah. I think there's a lot of cultural, probably the most cultural variation you can get in a short space of time is around the Mediterranean. You can go from you can go from Egypt up through, you know, through Israel, then you're in, you know, Turkey, and pretty soon you're Greece, Italy. You know, you've got that's quite a good amount of cultural variation. Okay, I like that. Okay, so I'd like to start in

Speaker C: 00:33:39

Egypt. We're in the Mediterranean. So are we talking about a boat trip rather than a road

Speaker B: 00:33:44

trip? We could mix it up. No, we've got to drive through Syria. It's going to be great. That'll be

Speaker A: 00:33:48

the exciting bit. We do a bit of everything, you know, motorbikes, camels, tuk-tuks and a bit of dinghies and everything. Okay, nice. Okay, so that was some Egypt going around. So what's the, we want something to go wrong. Okay. Syria? Kidnapped? Yeah, so poor Jordan gets kidnapped in Syria. Okay. He doesn't like it. Yeah, but you know, we don't get him back probably. But it's fine. We is fine for us. And you know, we're the majority. So that's fine. Okay. And then finally,

Speaker B: 00:34:19

how does it finish? No, wait, wait. There's a couple of things we need to add. Peak rule, we've got to have in the middle, we've got to have like the top, the best experience. That'll we want to squeeze in just a little bit of relaxation time. So I suggest just after the peak, we have our two days in a in a luxury hotel. Then we get back on the road. So we've got we've got about two days on the road that luxury hotel in I didn't tell a VIP or something. Yeah. And then and then we get back on the road. And, and that's where the excitement happens. But we've got to end on a high. So I think we've got to we've got to end. We free Jordan. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A: 00:34:58

Okay. Yeah. Well, it might be come save me. No,

Speaker B: 00:35:02

break him out in cover of darkness, get that and sail over to Greece and have a nice really nice.

Speaker A: 00:35:09

Maybe like you get really matey with Mossad or something. And, you know, where they go, hey, these guys know what they're about. And we all join up together something like that.

Speaker D: 00:35:17

I think a key ingredient is also Fraser you photographing everything. Yeah. So we have

Speaker C: 00:35:21

something to look back on. In terms of holidays and memories. Yeah. Obviously, the photo album has died. And yet the you know, the kind of holiday slideshow was a was a staple

Speaker B: 00:35:32

of the: 1970

Speaker A: 00:35:42

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what did we design our holiday thing? Was that rescuing Jordan?

Speaker B: 00:35:46

Yeah. Yeah. No, the peak is the peak is the wasn't it? We haven't decided. You know,

Speaker A: 00:35:51

that's the bit we still need to decide. So so that the good endings we get Jordan back. Hooray. But we still need that sort of thing. June buggies to Petra, horsing, horse ride, taking a horse ride to Petra like in Indiana Jones. Going through the Wadi Rum. Yeah. But also I think yeah, but also some bandits try and get us. Yeah, we manage to elude them. Oh no, we befriend them. Yeah. And then in the end, they help us rescue Jordan. Yeah, that circles nicely. Yeah. Brilliant. Cool. That's it. Okay. Right. Let's get on to the travel agent. Okay. Are we done? Are we

Speaker B: 00:36:25

finished? Have we wrapped this up? What would happen is that they would be Jordanian nationalists and they would refuse to help. And then when we told them the name of the person who'd been

Speaker A: 00:36:36

kidnapped, they would sign up. Yeah, we're on for this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I like that. Nice. That sounds like a really fun holiday. It ticks all those boxes. Thank you, as always, for listening to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast. I'm Fraser McGruer. We've been here with Jordan Fermanis, Chris Wragg, and Nick Hare of Aleph Insights. Until next time, goodbye.