Fun
What is fun? Is organised fun actually fun? Can fun be manufactured?
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Transcript
Hello and welcome to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast, produced by me, Fraser McGruer, for Aleph Insights. In this series of podcasts, we take a look at interesting topics and discuss what we think they tell us about analysis and decision-making. I'm here with Peter Coghill and Nick Hare of Aleph Insights and this week we're discussing having fun on our summer holidays. Nick, did you have fun on your summer holiday?
Speaker B:Yeah, but this is the thing, that while I was there, I was sort of conscious of- Where was there? Oh, France and Yorkshire and actually a little bit in Northumbria as well. And I guess now I'm 41 and I've got small children and they clearly have fun. They jump around in the pool for an hour and they're having fun. And I'm sort of reflective enough to sit there and go, am I having fun? And the things that I actually seem to have fun doing on holiday are not things that I'm necessarily planning to do. And then things that, where you're consciously trying to have fun or you're in a place which is designed to provide you with fun, I often find quite depressing. So for example, near where we were staying in France, there was a lake and in the lake, you can pay like eight euros each to go and basically spend an hour jumping around on these kind of water-borne inflatable things, like slides and things you clamber over, like an assault course type thing. And you put on a vest and you go in and you climb on the things and you fall into the water and you've got your allotted hour. And then you come out and of course, it's full of lots of good looking French teenagers jumping around and being kind of annoying. My kids loved it, right? They had a great time. I was sitting there going, when is this going to end? Like this is-
Speaker A:Why didn't you like it?
Speaker B:Well, that's I think what we want to talk about is organized fun.
Speaker C:A bit too physical maybe.
Speaker B:The physicality didn't bother me that much. I still, I can climb up a thing. I can go down a slide. I think there are a number of things that feel like they're impinging on me. For example, the lack of freedom, the inability to be able to say, well, I'm getting out now for 10 minutes. The fact that I've got sort of on a timer, the fact that I've paid to be there, a kind of expectation that you'll kind of go round in a certain direction and sitting there thinking, well, now what do I do? Do I go down the slide again? It was just, you know, kind of a bit of a misery for me. So yeah, that's it really. So the question is, organized fun, does it ever work? What is fun? And, you know, can we ever try to have fun? And if we do, are we doomed to fail?
Speaker A:You just sound like a grumpy old git. Yeah, I think that's happened. Well, I do want to come to you, Peter, but I just want to come back to Nick briefly, is, well, what is fun for you?
Speaker B:Well, I think I kind of know when I have fun and it is when I'm engaged in an activity which is, you know, stimulating and where there's a sense of joy and excitement, bit of, you know, bit of risk. Board games, for example, a classic example.
Speaker A:I was going to say masturbating above a pit of snakes or something, I don't know.
Speaker B:Yeah, that would, I mean, that would be fun, actually. It'd be interesting. But the thing is that, for me, it's the, it is, a key part of it is not being oriented by a desire to have fun, but being oriented by a desire to do a certain thing. And then you have the fun. But if you go, right, let's go and have some fun.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's like New Year's Eve syndrome, right? It's that kind of thing. Peter, weigh in in whichever way you want.
Speaker C:So, yeah, so I think long and short of it is Nick didn't have fun on this water park thing because he doesn't like water parks. But lots of the French teenagers, who were obviously very annoying, they were stimulated in a way that they enjoyed. So they were, so there's plenty of stimulation there. It's probably lots of bright colors, lots of water, hot, you know, different textures, different, you know, hot and cold water, the falling off things, splashing, loads of physical stimulation, which, you know, I might enjoy more than Nick, maybe, because I'm quite into my outdoorsy stuff. In fact, I've done canyoning and caving and various things like that, where it's like that, but for adults, where there is a bit more of a risk of death if you get it seriously wrong. So, yeah, maybe it's just that it's something that you kind of like. So, I mean, so this idea of organized fun and it being a terrible idea and just not gonna work, I take issue with, because what is a board game other than a set of, a framework in which you have to do stuff? Very organized fun. Very, very stringently organized fun. And in the same way- It's a very good challenge. In a similar way that, you know, going to the theater, there's a certain etiquette about being in a theater, that you know what you're gonna see, probably, you know what the play's about, otherwise you wouldn't have chosen it. You probably even know how it ends, if it's a classic. So, there's very strict rules about the structure, about going to the theater or going to the cinema. So, it's the same, but different. It's the same, you're still structured way of having fun, organized, delivered to you on a plate, but yeah, you'll probably enjoy that if you like the theater. Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think, is there a difference between fun and enjoyment? I wanna just throw that out. Now, I think, perhaps, and perhaps I'm confused here, because I think the things that I enjoy are things that I enjoy, rather than necessarily things where I'm having fun. Right, a feeling that fun has to be sort of, has to be undirected, in a way. Fun has to be intrinsically sort of, possibly even spontaneous and unplanned. So, you know how, if you go on a stag do, the night before, it's always the first night you get there, the night before any of the planned stuff happens, that is always the magic night, where the real fun happens, because stuff happens that you, you're not thinking, all the right people are there, but you don't have an agenda, you're all just doing stuff, because it seems like the right thing to do. That's definitely more fun than the stuff where you're told, right, now we're going to this belly dancing club, and now we're gonna go to this, yeah, we've got this brilliant night club now, and then we're gonna see a burlesque show, and then we're gonna do some dwarf tossing, or whatever. You know, it's like, okay, onto the next bit of fun. It's never fun. So, I'm not sure whether, you know, enjoyment and fun are the same. I would say that theatre is more of an enjoyment thing, rather than a fun thing. I wouldn't say that you go to a theatre to have fun. Sure.
Speaker C:Okay, so, I hadn't considered that distinction before, but I think it's worth exploring, I think.
Speaker A:So, well, can we separate it out? I mean, I think that's a fair one, that the theatre is more about enjoyment than fun. You could maybe say something similar with films.
Speaker B:I think board games, actually. I think possibly the enjoyment is playing the board game. The fun is doing the things in the board game.
Speaker A:Yeah, look, I don't know if this is relevant, but one thing that I notice is I do a lot of camera interviews where I'm behind the camera, and invariably the bits that I always, and it tends to be, often I do a set of questions, and I'll be interviewing a number of different people and asking the same questions, kind of a survey format. But invariably for the finished film, what I use most in the final cut is the stuff that was, in theory, or the people thought was off camera. And that always elicits, that's where you get the best material from. Those, so to bring it back round, those, even if the questions are designed to elicit an interesting or fun response, the best, funniest moments are those that are not, or not even scripted, but are not planned. So, it's that spontaneity.
Speaker B:I think it's the goal, for me, there's a goal-directedness. Like, it's a bit like management away days, where you think, well, we're supposed to be, you know, we're doing this, we're all supposed to be kind of having fun here. We're not working anymore, we're having fun, but you're not, because you know that actually there's a purpose. And if there's a purpose, it starts to not be fun anymore. And I feel like if you're doing, and I think that's partly my problem with organised fun, and particularly with sort of paying for leisure, you know, for fun, is that you know that the people who are providing it, they don't wanna have fun. They wanna make money. And somehow that detracts from it. I think it finds its extreme ballardian expression in, you know, the airport sort of departure lounge, which I also had the misery of experiencing, where, you know, it's sort of, well, we're gonna put on all these wonderful shops and things that you like, all of these great restaurants that you people like, but actually it just feels more like you're in a zoo or an episode of the Twilight Zone or something. You know, it's like, ah, we put this shiny cabinet here full of trinkets for you to entertain yourself with. And you think, this is horrible. Yeah, and so I think that's it. I think perhaps fun is a sliding scale, but definitely when you get towards the, right, we are really gonna have fun for a purpose, because having fun is the point, and that's when it's definitely not being fun.
Speaker C:So I'm still quite, I'm still slightly confused about the distinction, because say you're on this company away day, and say it's something you actually like doing. Say it was a company away day playing a mega game or something, Nick. You would probably enjoy it, wouldn't you? Yeah. But would you have fun?
Speaker B:Well, again, maybe the problem is I don't really know what fun is anymore. Yeah. Maybe I stopped having fun when I was 10.
Speaker C:Because I've now got a conflict. It's like, well, all these things that I do and I enjoy are any of them actually fun? And if I do have fun, what does it look like? Is it fun when I'm, just for some reason I'm taking a friend's dog for a walk, and I get playing with the dog, and that's completely unstructured, and it's just me messing around in the park with the dog. Is that what fun is? Or is fun also me going to the theatre and enjoying the show?
Speaker B:This is such an Aleph Insights podcast. What is, you know, yeah, because I do find myself sometimes thinking, oh, hang on a minute, I'm enjoying this, and then it sort of starts to ruin it a bit, the fact that I'm conscious of enjoying something. But, yeah. That really is moany old man. I think there is, it turns out that fun is really good for you, right? So apparently optimistic, fun-loving people. Sorry, sorry, sorry, just, just. I'm going to go back to that.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, no. I'm taking a slight detour. I'm just trying to think here. I'm just wondering if fun is more of a chemical thing than enjoyment. So is fun, to me it sort of sounds like an emotional thing.
Speaker B:Like joy, joyousness.
Speaker C:Yeah. Well, that might fit with the physiology, actually. So I did a little bit of reading on the physiology. So what happens when you're stimulated is that your brain attempts to match those stimuli with previous experience and memory that you've got. And where it finds a match, then you're well prepared to react in a certain way. So you've kind of done it before, you've rehearsed it before, or you've thought about it before. Where it's a new, novel thing, and you haven't got any good matches. That stimulates within the brain the release of dopamine, which is the drug associated often with enjoyment and with having a good time. Because dopamine strongly stimulates the amygdala, which is the emotional response part of the brain. So that's why when something different happens, you can be very, very shocked, or you can be very, very pleasantly surprised. And that helps make the brain work harder and come up with a solution to the problem, or to benefit from the information you're getting. So that's sort of part of it. So it's the novelty of the situation that gives you that emotional response. So maybe that's what the distinction between enjoyment and fun is. So enjoyment is more on the end of the spectrum where you've seen something like it before, so you kind of know what to expect. You were willing to have a bit of challenge, but you want to just listen to that same old Wagner piece again. Whereas fun is very spontaneous and surprising, but in a kind of safe, positive way. And that's where maybe sort of different ends of that sort of spectrum.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think this spontaneity thing, I think it feels very important to me. But as I said, I think there's also this, there's gotta be, it can't be interfered with by a goal. And I think maybe that's just the restating that it has to be spontaneous. But take the example of a friendly kickabout at the park versus a cup game where there's something on the line and something important has to happen. And I think if you have a sense that there ought to be something that you're doing, and the fun isn't what you should be doing at the moment, or that the thing might be going wrong, if you're thinking, well, I'll be having fun in the right way to achieve what we want to achieve, I think that's when it starts to get problematic. It starts to stop being fun. But yeah, so there's, and I think there's this issue about sort of fun and stress, which is they seem to be sort of in some ways, stress or at least the consciousness that there's something you ought to be doing really gets in the way of fun. And apparently fun is also, fun is good for you, possibly for related reasons. So apparently fun loving people, optimistic fun loving people live supposedly, I don't know how they measure how optimistic and fun loving someone is, but supposedly live seven and a half years longer than misery guts is. And apparently people who don't have fun, well, it's linked to criminality and obesity and a lack of creativity. Again, I would not put too much store in any of these so-called findings, but I don't know, something about it rings true. And I personally, if I don't schedule unallocated time, then I go nuts. Eventually if I've had, even if they're fun things. So my partners were saying, well, what are you moaning about not having free time? Last night you went for a drink with so-and-so and you played a board game the day before that. And the day before that we went for a walk and then we went out for a restaurant. They're all fun, they're all great fun things. But actually I don't feel like that unless I have some time where it says, typically Friday night or something, where I go, right, nothing's in the diary. Nothing is gonna happen. That's when I actually really can relax and have fun. And what would that be? Well, typically watching some crap on the telly, playing a game. But the key thing is that it's not scheduled.
Speaker A:Okay, this is really narrow. It doesn't sound fun at all to me.
Speaker B:Now the key thing would be that it's not like, look, if I've said, right, we're gonna set aside this time, this three-hour block, and we're gonna have fun, that would be very un-fun. You know, that's the balancing act. You've got to, as soon as you start to panic too much. I don't know, I don't know. No, it's like a difference between, you know, to me it feels like a difference between Saturday morning and Sunday evening. It's that sort of difference. It's sort of, look, things, you've got things you need to do.
Speaker A:So look, do you think it's more difficult to have fun as you get older? Going back to one of the things we talked about is maybe we talked about enjoyment and it's sort of, I think we talked about how it's things that your brain recognises when it's something new, then that's fun. Well, it's difficult to have more, to continue to have new experiences as you get older.
Speaker C:Yeah, I think there's probably something in that. Because if you're a sort of well-traveled, worldly person, you've seen it all before, there's little surprise in the world, then it's harder to challenge yourself. But I think probably the driving factor as you get older is just you end up having more responsibility. So you have, as Nick's got, less and less unstructured time just to do stuff. But I hold out hope that it is possible to engineer the framework for fun. So, and this is what- It's a very piece of solution. And this is what Disneyland and things are trying to do, is lay a framework in which it's a safe environment where people can have playful fun. Disneyland's not my thing, but I do a similar sort of thing. If I plan a trip cycling or hiking for a weekend, or for a week or so, there's, beyond being there with certain people at a certain time, there's not a great deal of much planning that goes on. And it's spontaneous within that kind of framework to a degree. There's obviously got to be a bit of planning, so you've got to make sure you've got food and bicycles and everything else. So, but that's all just sort of planning to create an environment in which fun can occur.
Speaker B:The tablecloth on which the delicious meal of fun can be served. Yeah. I think there is, again, and it seems to me, actually, the more we've discussed this, the less sure I am now about exactly what fun is. I'm beginning to feel that the elusive nature of fun is intrinsic. It's like a will-o'-the-wisp, you know, that actually, if you are trying to pin it down, if you were to say, using a Peter-designed framework, I've discovered that fun always happens when I have these four conditions, and I've got to make sure I've got them. I can go around, here's my checklist of things I need to do to have fun. I feel like then the fun would cease. No, I think this issue about sort of giving yourself the space, like not having, I don't know if you guys read Wait But Why, that is a very, very infrequent, but really good blog by a guy called Tim Urban. And he's got the one very good post, very long post about procrastination. And he talks about this dark playground, which is what you do when you're procrastinating. And it's, you know, you're playing a computer game or doing the crossword or, you know, maybe playing the piano or having an afternoon nap, normally things which would be fun, but because you have hanging over you, this gloom of there is something you ought to be doing, they're completely and utterly soured. There's, you can't have fun because of the fact that something is getting in the way. So I feel like it is that space. You've got to have that space. You've got to not feel like something is getting in the way. It's like, you know, okay, we're going to start having fun now, guys, but we've only got 10 minutes. We couldn't do it, couldn't be done.
Speaker A:We need to draw things to a close there, but before we do, I've got two questions for you. First one is, was this fun? Are you having fun now? No. Do you? Of course you are, of course you are. Are you having fun now? Are you having fun now? Absolutely, are you having fun yet?
Speaker B:Rate how much fun you're having on this nought to 10 scale.
Speaker A:Yeah, are you, the first question is, do you think, not that you're a fun person, but do you think people think you are a fun person? That's my first question. I've got a second one, which I'll reveal in a moment, but do you think- No, I think people realise that I'm a doer Scott. I don't think people think you're a fun person.
Speaker C:I don't think you're a fun person. Thanks for confirming that. You could have just lied.
Speaker B:Peter's a good- But actually, he's a good fun. He's actually a good- He's a good wingman if you wanna have fun. He's not necessarily gonna generate the fun, but he'll certainly take part in it and make it more fun if he's there. He's like a fun catalyst. A fun amplifier. Nick, do you think people think you're fun? I think people see me as a bit of an agent. People see me, I think, a bit unfairly as an agent of fun. I think. And the reason that I say this is, I know that a lot of people have to make excuses to their wives and partners when they're gonna spend any time with me because they see me as a bad influence. Oh, really? I'm often seen as a bad influence, not by people who've met me. Because I think when I see people, I'm probably more intensely engaged in some kind of activity, be it drinking or board gaming or doing music or something quite, and I'm gonna do it hard, whatever it is. And I think people assume I'm like that all the time. Now, I'm totally not. Like at home, I'm really much more of a, I'd much rather just lie on the sofa and read something. But when people see me in public, they often think I'm perhaps more of a wild child than I am. I don't know. I don't know if that's, now you can tell me that that's completely wrong.
Speaker A:I'm not sure if that's an accurate projection of perception.
Speaker B:No, it's not true.
Speaker A:Yeah, I know that. I'm telling you, this is how people- No, but I don't think people necessarily do think of you like that. I don't know. What do you think, Peter, about Nick? Whether people think he's fun?
Speaker C:I know, I can see that, actually. I can see that, because people sort of, often in relations, when we go into the meeting at the pub or going to have board gaming, the conversation is, oh, I've managed to get a leave pass. It's that kind of- Right. It's obviously there being a difficult conversation. But that might just be because people of a certain age, that's how things happen. You have to book your time carefully.
Speaker B:Your missus, she knows me.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think she just thinks, I think actually my perception of how people might think of you would be interesting and funny and intelligent.
Speaker B:But basically not fun, is what you're saying. But not necessarily fun. Maybe that's, I think maybe you're right.
Speaker A:Yeah. And what about the perception of me? Do you think people think I'm fun? No, you're tedious, Fraser.
Speaker B:It's a yawn fest. Come on, guys. I think I would say, see, I think you are actually a bit of a trickster in life. You see, you like to do things that are spontaneous. You check off the criteria for what fun. You're willing to give things a go. Yeah. You'll give it a go. You'll do stuff, just because it's there. So I think that's true. I think it's true, even though I don't think that's your personality necessarily gives that off. People might think you were quite sort of sensible and conservative until they get to know you.
Speaker C:Hey, here's a question. If there was a unit of fun, what would it be called?
Speaker B:It's called a funit.
Speaker C:I would call it a giggle. It's gotta be a giggle of fun.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:But then you could have a giggagiggle. A giggagiggle.
Speaker A:Yeah. It'd be like lots of fun. Okay, I just stopped having any giggagiggles right now. Okay. All right. Thank you. As always listening to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast, I'm Fraser McGruer. I've been here with Peter Coghill and Nick Hare of Aleph Insights. Thank you. Until next time. Bye-bye.
