Content

Speaker A: 00:00:00

Hello and welcome to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast produced by me, Fraser McGruer for Aleph Insights. In this series of podcasts we take a look at interesting topics and discuss what we think they tell us about analysis and decision making. I'm here with Jordan Fermanis and Nick Hare of Aleph Insights and this week we're discussing content. Nick, I'm a content provider, producer, is that right? So are you, because we're producing content right now. Um, what's this whole content thing about? Tell me content.

Speaker B: 00:00:37

Are we, are we producing? What an intro. Thank you, thank you. What's the container? That's good quality content by the way. What's it, what are we putting content into? In this case, um, in the, in the skin of a podcast. Yeah, so, so basically podcast, the, the, the sense is, isn't it, that, but the podcast is there and is, is really the most important thing. Content creator,

Speaker A: 00:00:59

that was the word I was looking for. Content creator. We're both content creators. Yeah,

Speaker B: 00:01:02

but that the, the podcast is basically this shiny vessel and we're just slopping some content into it. Right. That I've got a beef with this. Okay. Right. Well, it's basically that I think people use the term content as though it's just some filler, as though you just sort of pop some content into it. We've got this website, the website's important. Now we need some content, afterthought, just slap a bit of content in there. Whereas I think what we're talking about is artistic creations like this podcast. Yeah, exactly. We create, we're creating some, some art and, um, it's up to us which container we put it in, but the contents are the important thing. Right. You know, the content is what you want. No, but I'd say it's more than that. Right. Which

Speaker A: 00:01:48

is how you and I, and perhaps Jordan feel, cause I say you and I, cause we're of a similar sort of age. Right. Old. Yeah. Old. Not like the sort of young gunslinger over here. Um, it's actually this idea of content, just even the word is bizarre because actually if let's take this podcast as an example. Yeah. Okay. Really why we do it is we want to talk about interesting stuff. The stuff. Simple as that. Simple as that. The actual topics. Yeah. Yeah. And like, Hey, I think this about yellow. No, you're totally wrong about yellow. And we have a discussion. Right. Yeah. And it, and, and so that's actually what comes first is, Hey, let's discover something or, you know, there's a value in, in whatever we want to discuss, but then that gets labeled. Um, as content. Stick it in the corner with all the other content. Yeah. And then, Hey, we've got this content to deliver. How should we do it? Hey, let's do a podcast. And so, so that's.

Speaker C: 00:02:43

Yeah. I don't think it's that bizarre because I think it's, and I think you were kind of hinting at it there. It's it's when it becomes published on a news on a website, on a new website or some kind of usually online platform, then I think it becomes content. Like it's not, I think for me, content is just like a catch all phrase, um, that possibly wasn't possible before when you just had traditional forms of media, like books and newspapers and these very singular places to publish. Whereas now you can publish on the internet in all sorts of forms and formats. And that's when, that's why I think content is this kind of nice overarching term. Yeah. And

Speaker A: 00:03:28

actually that's a good point because, um, uh, it sounds like I can play, I'm complaining about this whole thing and I am, but the fact is, is 20 years ago, me and you were just being some random blokes down the pub arguing about this stuff, but now we get to, we are down that anyway. But in addition, we get to broadcast that to the world, to millions of listeners, millions of listeners that we have. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, so let's frame this. What do we want

Speaker B: 00:03:54

to talk about? Well, it should. So you and me, Fraser, and, and I'm going to include Jordan, the great artists that we are, see the art as the important thing. Correct. And the container is a mere server of the, of the great art that we've made. Right. Um, but let's try and extend some generosity to the, to the container people who want to see that what we do as content, because as you've just alluded to, we can't, we, without that container, our art would just be a puddle on the floor. Whereas now it's, it's being delivered to people who can listen to it. And, um, you know, the people who make, uh, the things that you need to listen to podcasts like podcast distribution services and you know, all of that, um, they have done us a favor. So, uh, what I want to, I suppose what we want to talk about is, is what is more important, the contents or the container? Where does this, where does the, uh, you know, the kind of what's the history of the use of the word of the term content? Um, and, uh, how much should we care about containers rather than contents? What's the right amount to compare, to care about the two? When you say container, do you mean

Speaker A: 00:05:03

in this case, the media in which the format was delivered? So it could be, um, text on website, it could be a podcast, could be a film, et cetera. That's what you mean, right? Yeah. Yeah. Like the

Speaker B: 00:05:12

ght. He wrote a thing, uh, in: 1996

Speaker A: 00:06:43

marketer. He said I've been to so many conferences for digital marketing where that's what everyone

Speaker B: 00:06:46

e'll definitely turn to that.: 1996

Speaker A: 00:07:33

ow did we get from that? Hey,: 1996

Speaker C: 00:07:47

Yeah. So I was looking at the web 2.0 movement, which I think is where this transition um, this sort of rise of content, um, reaches its high point. Um, because basically I think 1.1, web 1.0, um, was very websites that were very static. Like they were just built on very simple code. You couldn't customize them very well. Um, it was the kind of the, the, the, you know, the first iteration of the internet web 2.0 is the sort of rise of user generated content. So online sharing platforms, the, you have the, you know, blogs, um, you have the ability to create the content, create what's on the website yourself and personalize it. Um, which also kind of leads to increases in, um, competition as well. So everyone else is kind of publishing their own stuff on the internet. And so slowly you get this buildup of, of this massive information online that's been user generated, not generated from large corporations or companies or technology people. It's, it's just peer to peer. Um, and I think that's where this, this sort of proliferation of content really took off.

Speaker A: 00:09:06

Okay. So the first thing I want to ask about that then is there must be clear implications for this, right? So, and it's this kind of leveling out and this sort of democratization of

Speaker B: 00:09:15

rom, uh, I think it was about: 1995

Speaker A: 00:11:30

broadcast it. Look, two things. I know we've got lots of points to go through. Um, but I'm just really impatient because it just makes me immediately want to ask and make a couple of points. Um, the first is make your points, Fraser. Yeah. Just go for it. I think I've forgotten them. Just say stuff. Thanks, Nick. Um, I think the first thing is, is, hey, good thing is that, um, production and distribution of content is no longer the preserve of an elite of, of journalists and these and BBC and stage TV stations, et cetera. That's good, right? Democratization of content production. Bad. Right. A lot of crap out there because most people have no idea what they're talking about. Obviously not us. Um, so that's the first thing. So it has an implication for the quality and the volume of content. Well, they are intimately linked, aren't they? Yes. Um,

Speaker B: 00:12:23

I mean, if you suddenly need, you know, billions of words because you have all these containers, you can't make all of those words as good as the old words. Yes. Jordan.

Speaker C: 00:12:35

I don't know if the quality thing is such that assumes that the old journalism is of a high quality, which I would actually push back on. I think, I just think information is, whether it's written by a journalist or some guy in his apartment in San Francisco, like there's no, there's nothing to say that they couldn't write something of the same level of quality. Um, I think it's more the, I, I, I think also it's, it's, it's a marketing thing as well. I think like what, um, what the old traditional media was able to do is market their journalism very like as if it was this like high quality product. Um, right. And I think like maybe the, the kind of rise of content is sort of the web 2.0 or the user generated content, um, reply to that in a way, which is, um, well, you know, we can make really high quality stuff as well. Um, we're going to call it content and then, you know, YouTube and Google and these tech companies can kind of, um, make advertising revenue off user generated content. It's sort of like a, yeah, I think it's a response to, um, the, the, the marketers of traditional media.

Speaker A: 00:13:50

Um, Jordan, I'm surprised to hear you say this. Okay. Because what was your former profession? Journalism. Right. So I, I feel that you're being treacherous towards your profession. I am. Because it sounds like you're doing down journalists.

Speaker C: 00:14:02

But I think I am because I think, um, You've been inside the sausage factory. The proof is in the pudding. Web 2.0 and now 3.0.

Speaker B: 00:14:10

What is that by the way, Jordan?

Speaker C: 00:14:12

Three.

Speaker B: 00:14:12

Yeah. What's the difference between that and web 2.0?

Speaker C: 00:14:14

Apparently three is basically kind of what you were saying before. It's an extension of two, except now it's like autonomously generated content. So like, Is it? Wow.

Speaker A: 00:14:23

It's AI type stuff. What's it called? That stuff?

Speaker C: 00:14:26

ChatGPT. Large language models, that kind of thing. So it's, um, no longer even users. Now it's just AIs. Okay. Um, so

Speaker B: 00:14:36

And only AIs will be reading it. So they're all just, it's just going to be a load of robots churning out crap. Yeah.

Speaker A: 00:14:42

And then robots moaning about the deterioration of content. Okay. But you sort of started talking about something there, which is actually the other point I was going to come on to, which is brilliant, which is, um, this sort of the way that content is generated, suddenly we're starting to get a tail wagging the dog situation. And you started talking about marketing. Um, and this sort of gets me onto what we talked about in the pre-show discussion, which is I, I, I like cooking. You like cooking, right?

Speaker B: 00:15:16

Yeah, that's right.

Speaker A: 00:15:17

I don't, you know, I like looking up recipes on the internet is now a nightmare, especially ones generated from America. I find where you cannot find the bloody recipe and the instructions that you want, because you're just having to trawl through a load of content and adverse just to get to the bottom where you actually want to find.

Speaker B: 00:15:34

Have you noticed how the person who, the person whose picture is there, it's always the same picture and that they're always, they're always whatever. And a busy mom. Yes. Yeah. That's weird. But they're, they're the people creating all this content. I don't think they're real. They can't be real.

Speaker A: 00:15:47

Presuming that they're consuming it as well. So that's why I want to talk about a bit, which is, so, you know, what's going on with that. And it just means this is why we're moaning about this because content just becomes a load of rubbish.

Speaker B: 00:16:00

Richard Dawkins, but I think: 1976

Speaker A: 00:21:25

way of thinking about the internet. So I want to bring in Jordan before I do. I don't, I don't think the analogy holds true because, um, I just think the premise is wrong because I don't think it's ever been the case that we thought that the, the, um, the organism or the skin or the vehicle was, we didn't know what genes were. So let me finish. Let me finish, which is actually what I think we always thought was important was the content, but it was about the, the, the purpose that content was serving. And so therefore the quality of it and what we were trying to communicate in that content, right? Um, whereas now what's changed is that weirdly the content is still the most important thing, but for different reasons. And it's just, just the fact that it is content is what's important. That's the only thing that's important about it. Not what the content is for. Um, anyway, I don't know if that's, I think that's, and I say, therefore, I think it doesn't quite fit into this sort of thing about the organism or the, um, the vehicle. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Well, I'm just putting it out there. Yeah. Jordan, move us on. Cause you want to talk about what have you, how does it, this large language models. Yeah. I remember this from another time. What, what, what, what, what's that all about? Are you the last person on earth to have heard

Speaker B: 00:22:43

about large language models? Probably. Yeah. All right. Well, that's cleared that up then. Yeah.

Speaker A: 00:22:47

Well, not only that, the last person to hear about, and then promptly forgot what it was all

Speaker B: 00:22:51

about. I'm not, I don't, I think we're doing our listeners a disservice if we even explain what they are because they will know what large language models are. They'll know what chat GPT is. If you're ready for the letters of complaint. Yeah. They'll know what we're talking about. Jordan, go for it.

Speaker C: 00:23:03

We, we have a very high opinion of our listeners and we don't need to bore them with definitions of large language models. She's extremely well-educated. Um, but I do think that they, they pose an interesting, um, interesting, uh, innovation in terms of content production. Um, because the, I think they will, obviously they can create text at very high speed. Yeah. Um, without much thought or any, any thing really. Um, just a couple of words of prompting. Um, so I think there's likely to be quite an increase, um, in the amount of content being produced through these, um, through these models, um, which could have some interesting implications. Um, it could be that, that, um, this could devalue content, um, even further, even further. Um, but conversely, it could mean that human generated content is more valuable. Absolutely. Um, and, and that we distinguish very strongly between the two. Um, so perhaps you might have a situation where large language models are used for the really boring, dry content that we all hate when we, you know, look up recipes on the internet or whatever, but the human generated content is, is the really valuable stuff, you know, like maybe the, I don't know, the really insightful political commentary. Well, new things, new thoughts, right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean,

Speaker B: 00:24:34

that's what, that's what you're not going to get out of GPT. Original thinking. By definition, you're not going to get something which isn't reflective of something that's out there in the, in the training data. Absolutely. In some sense. It's not, I mean, you're not only gonna,

Speaker C: 00:24:44

sorry, Jordan, go ahead. LLMs are very skilled at creating conversational content, the type of, the type of content that they are good at creating. But I think as Nick rightly pointed out, the original stuff, the kind of, the new thinking, um, that will still have to come from humans. But I think what it could also do is it could, it could create new formats. Um, so, you know, like it kind of, because LLMs use that dialogue or that kind of conversational format, um, that could be like a new way of storytelling, or it could be like, you know, there could be interactive forms of, um, those kinds of conversations, um, producing, producing a lot more content.

Speaker A: 00:25:30

Okay, great. Um, so look, we need to move to sort of wrap up shortly. Um, before we do, just a comment, um, which is that I can't moan about this stuff too much because I am actually, I don't like the term, but my job and what I get paid for right now, but also in my sort of wider sort of, uh, salaried life is I create content. I'm a video producer. I make, uh, and I get paid to do that. Um, you know, I photograph stuff, don't get paid as much for that. I make a podcast, which I get paid a little bit. Um, you know, um, an enormous amount considering, considering the effort you've put in. So I, yeah, that's about right. Um, so, um, I can't, why am I moaning, right? Because my career would not exist were it not for the changes we've talked about. That's

Speaker B: 00:26:17

the first thing. Well, hang on, Fraser, there used to be things like photographers. True.

Speaker A: 00:26:21

And people used to make radio programmes. But it's more accessible now. It's true. And maybe I wouldn't have been able to access it before. Anyway, second thing. I'm not sure we've covered anything really. I feel like, am I wrong? I feel like all we've done is moan a bit. So what have we covered? Where are we, you know, whether you're concluding this or any other sort of thoughts on

Speaker B: 00:26:38

this? Well, it is a bit of a rant. Okay. Right. But I think, I think it comes from the same place as, so I found an interesting stat actually, which apparently between 10 to 40% of a product's cost is packaging. Right. So, so what I'm saying is in products, the content by and large is the expensive bit. That's what you'd expect. Right. And so I suppose this is a bit of a rant on, on behalf of content creators, that it's not, the idea that it is just this stuff that you can put into things is what has led us to an internet of crap. Right. That it's just stuff that we can, you can pour into websites and things. And, and that, yeah, we should, you know, I guess, yeah, I don't know. I don't think I have a conclusion to be honest. I think that's

Speaker A: 00:27:26

conclusion enough. I think that's conclusion enough. Right. Look, just finish this off. Take this question, whichever way you want. Favourite container. I don't like that question. Yeah. But if you like it, you answer it. I'm gonna answer my own question. Okay. You know,

Speaker B: 00:27:38

you know how I hate Apple? Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I, and I can't really explain why there's something, it's something more. So that's your favourite container is Apple? It's no, it's the, is the, there's something so smug about Apple and everything, but the one Apple product, as I think I've mentioned before, is an iPod. They don't even make them anymore. So the one thing they did right is finished. But they, I must say on unboxing as the internet content creators call it, unboxing an iPod is a really lovely experience. But you've only had that

Speaker A: 00:28:12

once. And that was like 20 years ago. Yeah, but it just, it was so powerful. It just stayed with me.

Speaker B: 00:28:18

As old Steve Jobs said, it just, it just works. But, but in general, I mean, a more actual sort of, you know, day to day, an experience I have more often is, is opening a new board game. Now, there is just such a joy in the physicality of feeling of getting that kind of, you know, farty noise when you open the lid and then that waft of like solvents from the new board game smell, which very quickly wears off. And, and it's true that that is fun in itself, regardless of the content, regardless of the board game, a new board, opening a new board game is just a joy.

Speaker A: 00:28:51

Nice. Two things. What that's made me think is, first of all, I'm unfortunately, I'm sure back when you open that iPod for the first time, unfortunately, you probably didn't record it. However, fortunate for us, I've got a new idea, right? Unboxing videos. Well, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Retro unboxing videos. You put it back in the box. Okay. Do you know any filmmakers? Hello. I can be there and record you and direct you as you pretend that it's like 20 years ago. And there I am recording you opening it. Okay. It'll go viral.

Speaker B: 00:29:26

You've just invented unboxing videos. They're a massive genre already.

Speaker A: 00:29:29

No, I've advanced it. I've advanced it to a new iteration. So we're doing...

Speaker B: 00:29:33

This is like retroactive unboxing videos. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jordan.

Speaker C: 00:29:40

Favorite container. Favorite vessel. I think this is such a rubbish question, but go on. I love it. I don't mind a book. Is that a content container? Yeah, that's a container. Table of contents usually starts a book off. Yeah. But also, I like YouTube. I use that a lot. Is that a container? Yes, it is. Yeah, yeah. Substack as well is a new favorite of mine. I don't know what Substack is. It looks nice though, doesn't it? Blogging. Yeah, blogging. Okay. All right. I still think...

Speaker A: 00:30:12

Hold on. So your favorite container is... The internet. All of them. The internet.

Speaker C: 00:30:16

Yeah. Text, video, multimedia.

Speaker B: 00:30:19

He doesn't care what the content is. He just loves the internet. You're clearly part of the blog. Tell me something.

Speaker A: 00:30:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want to answer that question. My question I'm going to answer is... Well, you forced me to ask that question. My question is, what's the favorite... We're content creators. What's the favorite bit of content I've ever created?

Speaker B: 00:30:35

Simple. This podcast. Oh, Fraser. Awful.

Speaker A: 00:30:41

It's not. It's the wonderful photography. Wind it up, mate. Yeah. Wind it up. Wind it in. Okay. That's enough content for one day. That is enough content. Let's stop there. Thank you as always listening to the Cognitive Engineering podcast. I'm Fraser McGruer. I've been here with Jordan Fermanis and Nick Hare of Aleph Insights. Until next time. Goodbye. Goodbye.